Pittsburgh School District (Scranton, Lebanon, Upper St. Clair: cul-de-sac, middle-class, real estate)

[squarian]

Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam

The Woodland Hills experience really hasn't helped property values in any of the communities it encompasses.

Didn't stop the decline of Braddock, and sure isn't a draw for those who want to live or buy in Churchill or Edgewood either.

Absolutely, it was a disastrous (hic) shing - and it isssh shtill to (hic) thish day. In fact, not one of the most successful examples of cold-war era judicial activism.

That being said, how do we confront the debacle? A reactionary point of view would argue that the solution is to revert to the old ways and give each borough its own school district - this line has the advantage of appealing to self-interest.

If we're going to continue to structure public education according to economic privilege, then we really should end any pretense and privatise it utterly - it's a perfectly acceptable solution, as long as we're willing to accept the social stratification and probable social conflict which will result.

If we're not quite ready for class warfare to the hilt, then we may need to consider equity in public education, since small districts equivalent to single boroughs or neighborhoods perpetuate privilege and poverty.

I'll be happy to accept a 18th century conception of the role of education in society, because after all "the rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate, God made them high or lowly and ordered their estate". But if so I want it it made explicit - are we modern or are we feudal?

[gg]

Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam

The Woodland Hills experience really hasn't helped property values in any of the communities it encompasses.

Didn't stop the decline of Braddock, and sure isn't a draw for those who want to live or buy in Churchill or Edgewood either.

There are such amazing homes in Edgewood, but the values don't go up due to the desegregation all the way back in the early 80's. Think about it, the stupid idea still is messing up that area. What a shame. Yet there are still people that think this is okay and all is well. You can tell the people that were here back then and those that were not. Brian, you missed lots of history in Pittsburgh. All I can tell you is you may learn a few things reading what those of us that were hear write. Your ideas don't fly. They never did.

[PeterRabbit]

Edgewood, 6BR house on Maple Avenue $138,000. Taxes = $8,000.
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Wilkins, 3BR house $73,000. Taxes = $2,900.
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Forest Hills, 4BR house $135,000. Taxes = $3,800.
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Churchill, 4BR house $150,000. Taxes = $6,000.
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If not for Woodland Hills school district I think these properties would be going for at least double of what they're now listed for. Why are the taxes so high?

This merger should never have been permitted to happen. The people gave it a good fight and lost. Many left immediately as soon as the merger was approved. There was expensive vacant houses all over the place with greatly reduced sale prices. Times were still bad as Carter had been president the previous 4 years. Mortgage rates hit an all-time high.

I know of some who remained and bought up a small vacant elementary school and made it private (Churchill Academy), probably for the sake of their children as well as themselves. When their children became too old for it they left and the school died.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

It destroyed some really great neighborhoods

For the record, places like Edgewood and Churchill are not actually "destroyed".

Again, you prove my points without me even pointing anything out.

Again, the precise problem is that I care about poor children, and you don't. You may consider your points proven whenever you think it has been established that some richer children would hypothetically be better off if we made things a lot worse for a bunch of poorer children. But since I actually care about poor children, I don't think such hypotheticals prove anything.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by I_Like_Spam

The Woodland Hills experience really hasn't helped property values in any of the communities it encompasses. Didn't stop the decline of Braddock, and sure isn't a draw for those who want to live or buy in Churchill or Edgewood either.

Keep in mind that to my knowledge, no one here is actually defending Woodland Hills as it stands. Some people are advocating carving out the best neighborhoods in Woodland Hills and abandoning the rest of the kids in Woodland Hills to an even worse public school situation. Others are suggesting much wider consolidation. But I don't think anyone here is happy with the status quo.

Edit: By the way, I think it should be noted that the primary purpose of public education is not to manage property values, but rather to educate children. My concern with Woodland Hills is that it isn't doing a good enough job these days educating children, and that is an issue well worth addressing. But I also think it is very likely the case that there are many students over time who were better off attending Woodland Hills than they would have been in the General Braddock school district that was challenged in the court case. The fact that wasn't enough on its own to save those neighborhoods from further decline doesn't mean the benefit to those children in the meantime can be ignored.

Generally, part of the problem in these discussions is that if a person has always lived with the tiny school districts and hyperlocal school funding of Western PA, it may be difficult for them to imagine any other way of doing things. But in areas with much larger districts and more state funding of schools, there is less of a connection between school issues and local home values (not that such a connection is necessarily nonexistent, but the connection is typically not as robust and therefore not as damaging). And following that alternative path in Western PA would be a good thing for both school children and property-owners in the long run--again, it is too bad some people's life experiences are so limited they don't even understand this alternative path exists.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by squarian

IMO, the state constitution places the obligation to provide public education on the shoulders of the commonwealth - if school districts were to deliberately shut down and the Gen Ass refused to deal with the mess, then we're talking grounds for a suit.

Yep, that is probably the most certain path to some sort of action.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

There are such amazing homes in Edgewood, but the values don't go up due to the desegregation all the way back in the early 80's.

Again, for the record, Edgewood has seen appreciation in recent years. Per the Census data available in the American Factfinder, median home value went up from $108,200 in 2000 to $142,200 in 2005-09.

Of course I was living in Edgewood during that time--we bought a house in Edgewood in 2000, which we are just now selling--so I knew that already. Maybe the view from one's bunker in Fox Chapel is not always superior.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by squarian

I'll be happy to accept a 18th century conception of the role of education in society, because after all "the rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate, God made them high or lowly and ordered their estate". But if so I want it it made explicit - are we modern or are we feudal?

I believe the answer to your question is that poor children are supposed to be taken from their parents and placed in orphanages, what I think of as the Oliver Twist plan.

So to be charitable, it is more an early-19th Century vision than an 18th Century vision.

[squarian]

An interesting parallel from across the pond: education, ethnicity and class in industrial cities:

Why northern children are playing dead at school | Comment is free | The Guardian

[BrianTH]

Interesting, although not surprising, to see all the same issues with concentrated poverty and school performance arising in England.

Edit: Nice line with broad application from one of the commentators:

Anyone who believes that only bright working-class children 'deserve' an education is beneath contempt and probably unarguable with in any rational manner