PINE RICHLAND RESIDENTS...increase in school taxes/teacher contract negotiations....are you concerned? (Pittsburgh: appointed, live)

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by southeastlady

Your humor alluded me and quite frankly, in my opinion, was misplaced. You have every right to post whatever you wish. I only hope that if you choose to continue posting on this issue, you will be inclined to go the productive route. There are no self serving interests here. Our efforts could have a trickle down effect and be of benefit to a wider audience than just Pine Richland residents.

To use an over used cliche....just keepin' it real !!

OMGoodness! Copanut was being sarcastic. He was validating track2514's logical post. That was obvious.

[Copanut]

Sheesh, why do I picture a middle aged lady wearing her hair in a bun?

[Lobick]

Since you brought up this position and not me, before you call anyone a bigot, I would suggest you read the first Amendmnet of our wonderful constitution.

I'm well versed in the Constitution and it doesn't define the term bigot.

Then pull out your Bible (providing you have one) and read Leviticus 18:22-23 and 20-13 and Corinthians 1 6:9-10.

If bigots can find comfort and justification in ancient texts, well then I guess it's OK.

Mr. Cathy has every right, as do all Americans, to express their religious beliefs without fear of reprisal or intimidation.

...by the State. I hate it when people claim the defense of the Constitution like some sort of shield and then screw up its basic tenants. It reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of American citizenship.

No one directed anger at you yet your choice of wording shows a high level of such on your part. As a result, you can rest assured any suggestions you make toward the efforts of our group will most certainly fall upon deaf ears.

I wasn't showing anger at all. You held up the Chik-fil-a controversy as an example of what could be achieved when people's voices were heard. I was simply asking what had been accomplished. I'll take it from your response that "Nothing" is still the correct answer. Of course, corporate pockets were lined, so there is that. Quite a victory indeed.

[trackstar13]

Here is an example of why private businesses don't need tenure:

"John Krenicki is giving up his General Electric Co. (GE) paycheck. But he's going to be collecting an allowance.
As part of a deal to keep the veteran executive from joining a competitor for an unusually long three years, the conglomerate has agreed to pay Mr. Krenicki $89,000 a month until 2022. The payment to Mr. Krenicki, who is 50 years old, was dubbed a retirement allowance by GE and is worth $1 million a year."


For Retiring GE Executive, $89,000 a Month Not to Work - Yahoo! Finance

[robrobrob]

Originally Posted by track2514

It seems that the majority of this issue seems to be pension related? I for one as a college professor am a strong proponent of academic tenure, which was originally developed as a means to protect free thinking professors from powerful donors and the board of trustees. Academic freedom is part of tenure, but I also believe religious freedom and protection from powerful outsiders are the more important aspects of tenure in all forms of education (higher, secondary, elementary). I have worked in both untenured and tenured positions within higher education and there is a major difference in the classroom. During my work as an untenured professor I was actually disciplined for "grading too hard," when in fact the average grades in my courses were around 76%, which is pretty "average." My supervisor told me on several occasions that academic rigor was less important than enrollment numbers. Needless to say, I decided to leave this job and go somewhere I could get tenure. During the years I was seeking tenure I had to relax my standards a little, but now that I have tenure I can finally ensure the students are performing at a high level without fear of reprimand for "grading too hard."

I believe the same applies to elementary and secondary education and abolishing tenure or tying raises to student performance on standardized tests are not the answer. Significantly lowering teacher pay is also not the answer. I believe a more rigorous tenure process for elementary and secondary teachers is a viable solution, along with ending the teacher pension and replacing it with a 403b or something similar. As a college professor at a private university, I do not get a pension, but I do have an excellent match for my 403b and I am able to effectively do my job with academic tenure. One way that Pine Richland and other schools could save money is to use a similar tenure model to higher education where it would take teachers 5-6 years to achieve tenure instead of the 2-3 years that it currently takes most PA teachers. This way it gives the administration and the district more time to make sure the teacher is competent and is in the best interest of the long term success of the district. Additionally, the pension system is similar to some large corporations and college pensions that have existed in the past, but many of these are being phased out and replaced with more cost effective options. This issue may be hard to address though since it is more of a statewide issue, but PR or any district could add more steps to the payscale as a means of deterring people from retiring young and taking the nontaxable (by the state at least) pension. In other words, if the payscale had 28 steps vs. the current 17 steps that are listed on page 66 of the union contract from this website: http://www.openpagov.org/k12_payroll.asp

As a brief summary, I am a proponent of tenure at all levels of education. However, I feel that only the best teachers should be tenured and the process should be more rigorous. I realize the pension issue is a big deal and my only solution is to increase the number of salary steps so that it takes teachers longer to get the higher pension. Maybe this would deter teachers retiring after only 20 years of work and being at the top of the payscale? The aforementioned step increase would also backload the pay for teachers and since they would be moving up at a slower rate significantly decrease the need to increase taxes for annual wage increases. In conclusion, increasing the rigor of tenure and adding more payscale steps are the only viable solutions I see for any PA district with rising taxes since eliminating the pension is not a local issue. The solution I just mentioned seems fair since the top of the payscale is pretty high in PR and 17 steps is a relatively short amount of time to reach the top.

I don't know the answer but you probably do. I was wondering how frequently professors are denied tenure. If seems as if every teacher achieves tenure if they want it. Just wondering what the percentage is with professors.

[southeastlady]

Originally Posted by Lobick

I'm well versed in the Constitution and it doesn't define the term bigot.


If bigots can find comfort and justification in ancient texts, well then I guess it's OK.


...by the State. I hate it when people claim the defense of the Constitution like some sort of shield and then screw up its basic tenants. It reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of American citizenship.


I wasn't showing anger at all. You held up the Chik-fil-a controversy as an example of what could be achieved when people's voices were heard. I was simply asking what had been accomplished. I'll take it from your response that "Nothing" is still the correct answer. Of course, corporate pockets were lined, so there is that. Quite a victory indeed.

Responding to posts that have nothing to do with the issue at hand which is the effort of "TAXPAYER CPR"' is not something I wish to do. However, a response to your misaligned comments is necessary. So here goes:

The first few words of the Bill of Rights state "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.....". The operant words obviously are "establishment" and "exercise". To restrict the exercise of one's religious freedom is bigotry. The bigots in this case are the misguided mayors of Chicago, Boston, DC and San Francisco.

The Bible is much more than simply an ancient text. Christians, Jews and Muslims believe it is the word of God. Considering these are billions of people, it appears your opinion is out numbered.

Now, hopefully in the future, we can stick to the subject at hand.....the effort of concerned taxpayers in Pine Richland, cost over runs in our district, increased school taxes, the underfunded teacher's pension fund in the state of PA and ............

This effort that may appear to some of you minuscule, really has national implications. Every state in the union is potentially facing bankruptcy most related to the unfunded liability in their respective states. If you add up all of this liability, it amounts to over 3 trillion dollars.

If our effort can effect a cure ---- BIG DEAL.

[trackstar13]

Originally Posted by robrobrob

I don't know the answer but you probably do. I was wondering how frequently professors are denied tenure. If seems as if every teacher achieves tenure if they want it. Just wondering what the percentage is with professors.

Rob

At an Ivy league school less than 10% of professors who are tenure track actually achieve tenure. At a major Research 1 university like Pitt or Penn State I would say the number is closer to 30-40% of tenure track professors achieve tenure. At a smaller state school like Slippery Rock or CalU, the majority of tenure track professors earn tenure, probably around 60-75%. Tenure denial in higher education is much more common than the public thinks and not everyone is just "given" tenure. When you are denied tenure you are usually given a one year contract and you have to move on after that final one year contract.

In higher education currently, there are less and less tenure track jobs and many universities are reducing the tenured workforce by supplementing with adjuncts or graduate students, but this is another issue altogether. Most students don't realize the difference between a tenured professor and an adjunct, but the main issue is not one of qualification, it is an issue of freedom to teach and teach well.

Back to the issue at hand, my younger sister is an elementary school teacher in PA and she received tenure after 3 years and a few classroom observations. She has been at her current school for almost 10 years and during that time she has only met one person who was denied tenure, so at least in this instance, the tenure rate for PA school teachers is close to 100%. I have been in higher education for over 12 years now and at least 50% of my current and previous colleagues have been denied tenure at one point. In higher education tenure applies much more to research than teaching, but at the secondary and elementary levels it is more related to the politics associated with being a public school teacher.

I can't tell you how many times my sister has been threatened verbally or through written communication by parents for failing a student who did not complete the work. Teaching is a tough job and the PA public school system is not perfect, but it is better than many other states. School districts in PA can be more frugal, but underfunding education like Mississippi or Louisiana is not the answer. On a final note, I believe PA public schools should apply the higher education model of tenure and make the process more rigorous. It is not a good idea to just give teachers tenure after a few years and with little oversight. I believe the process should be 5-6 years and there should be a higher rate of denial. Sorry for all of the long posts in this thread, but as you can see my career has been higher education focused and both my mother and sister were/are PA public school teachers.

[trackstar13]

Southeastlady

Why are you hijacking your own thread and arguing the politics of something that does not affect you like the school tax increase? You are actually making a good argument for school teacher tenure by posting much of what you have in this thread. What if your child's best teacher was gay? Would you want them fired for not conforming to your beliefs? I am not attacking your beliefs just wondering what you are thinking with these arguments.

[Lobick]

The first few words of the Bill of Rights state "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.....". The operant words obviously are "establishment" and "exercise". To restrict the exercise of one's religious freedom is bigotry. The bigots in this case are the misguided mayors of Chicago, Boston, DC and San Francisco.

Again, I missed the establishment of the Church of Chik Fil A. Nobody exercise of their religious freedom is being restricted. Evidently, a little bit of Constitutional knowledge is a very dangerous thing.

Christians, Jews and Muslims believe it is the word of God. Considering these are billions of people, it appears your opinion is out numbered.

No they don't, not even close. They believe in entirely different versions, add some books, subtract others. Re-write sections, translate them differently. Based on your own tyranny of the majority/ democratic criteria, a majority of the believers you've cited would reject the Corinthians verse you've cited as having a divine origin.

Now, hopefully in the future, we can stick to the subject at hand.....the effort of concerned taxpayers in Pine Richland, cost over runs in our district, increased school taxes, the underfunded teacher's pension fund in the state of PA and ............

This effort that may appear to some of you minuscule, really has national implications. Every state in the union is potentially facing bankruptcy most related to the unfunded liability in their respective states. If you add up all of this liability, it amounts to over 3 trillion dollars.

If our effort can effect a cure ---- BIG DEAL.

I wish all the anti-tax zealots success within their allotted fiefdoms, so long as they're not mine. Again, all I said was that if the Chick Fil A day (which you originally cited and inserted into the thread) was an example of what the collective "voice of the people" could achieve, that perhaps it wasn't worth the effort since it didn't achieve anything.

[southeastlady]

Originally Posted by track2514

Southeastlady

Why are you hijacking your own thread and arguing the politics of something that does not affect you like the school tax increase? You are actually making a good argument for school teacher tenure by posting much of what you have in this thread. What if your child's best teacher was gay? Would you want them fired for not conforming to your beliefs? I am not attacking your beliefs just wondering what you are thinking with these arguments.

As noted in my most recent reply, I most certainly do not prefer nor wish to deviate from my thread in any way. However, some issues posted that are beyond that of my original thread can not be left unaddressed due to the outrageous inaccuracy of such posts on issues that affect us all in one way or another.

Actually, I am a little surprised by your question on the possibility of my child's teacher being gay. My responses to the misaligned post had nothing to do with this issue. The issue was surrounding religious freedom which is every American citizen's right.

As you will note, when I do feel the need to respond to this type of unfortunate rhetoric, I do remind the poster of the intent of the thread and have never deviated from its intent, nor will I. As properly informed and concerned viewers realize, the school issue and all that surrounds it is much to important to as you put it, "be hijacked".

However, I do thank you for your input. Hopefully, input such as yours regarding the intent of this thread will discourage posters from posting controversial issues that have nothing to do with the issues at hand....something I have been trying to tactfully and respectively guide since the beginning.