Commute to downtown, Ross Twp vs. Mt. Lebo (Lebanon, West Mifflin: homes, cinema)

[trackstar13]

Originally Posted by greg42

I say the number of routes is a "weird measure" because only a small minority will actually change their route with any frequency.

I completely disagree because most Pittsburghers know the alternate routes and it is common to change routes despite any added time. It may simply be psychological, but it is still something that influences commutes and peoples perceptions of commutes. Having lived in several places I am still amazed at the time Pittsburghers invest in finding alternate routes and being from Pittsburgh it has influenced my decision making regardless of where I have lived.

[greg42]

Originally Posted by track2514

most Pittsburghers know the alternate routes

Not in my experience. Most Pittsburghers know ONE way to get places even if it's not the usual way and will not deviate from that way for fear of getting lost.

Hey, if you're gonna make sweeping generalizations....

[trackstar13]

Greg

I am sorry you have not assimilated into the Pittsburgh population, but I simply disagree with you and that is all. Most regular commuters in Pittsburgh know and use multiple routes.

[greg42]

LOL! It has nothing to do with Pittsburgh culture dude. My experience with true Pittsburgh culture, let me tell you, is that people know one way to get most places. That may not hold true for some commuters, but that is "Pittsburgh culture" just like avoiding crossing a river is "Pittsburgh culture" in this sort of case.

Keep in mind also that most of the people for whom we make these recommendations, including I believe the OP in this thread, are not Pittsburghers.

Anyway, that's really beside the point. The key point is that you are suggesting to make a decision based on the EXCEPTIONS of the commute, rather than based on the NORMAL commute. The EXCEPTIONS happen a handful of times a year. The NORMAL is what happens MOST of the time.

In other words, it doesn't make sense, at least to most people's way of thinking, to make a decision on where they live based on the exceptions in commuting that happen only very occasionally. Clearly for you this is far more important than on average. Your comfort level is apparently much increased by having a way around these exceptions, but suggesting this is an any way usual for most people (leave Pittsburgh out of it) is just a bit of a stretch.

[Copanut]

Originally Posted by track2514

Greg

I am sorry you have not assimilated into the Pittsburgh population, but I simply disagree with you and that is all. Most regular commuters in Pittsburgh know and use multiple routes.

[trackstar13]

Greg42

The true generalization here is that commuters in Pittsburgh are only aware of one route. I can just see it now, Greg42 is coming home to Dormont after a long day at the office. Well he forgot to read the construction signs and the West Liberty Tunnels just closed today for construction. So he parks his car in front of the tunnels and spends the night hoping they will re-open in the morning.

Pittsburgh is a city of driving obstacles and many people are forced to learn a new route because of these obstacles. It is one of my family traditions to discuss new and exciting routes to various areas of the city/suburbs. Several of my college friends have simply refused to live on the wrong side of the Squirrel Hill Tunnels because of the lack of viable alternate routes.

[jay5835]

Originally Posted by greg42

My experience with true Pittsburgh culture, let me tell you, is that people know one way to get most places. That may not hold true for some commuters, but that is "Pittsburgh culture" just like avoiding crossing a river is "Pittsburgh culture" in this sort of case.

This is not "Pittsburgh culture." This is human culture. I didn't like crossing the Potomac to go to Arlington any more than I like going through the Fort Pitt Tunnel. I feel an equal need to carry my passport in either instance.

[Copanut]

Originally Posted by jay5835

This is not "Pittsburgh culture." This is human culture. I didn't like crossing the Potomac to go to Arlington any more than I like going through the Fort Pitt Tunnel. I feel an equal need to carry my passport in either instance.

[greg42]

Originally Posted by track2514

The true generalization here is that commuters in Pittsburgh are only aware of one route. I can just see it now, Greg42 is coming home to Dormont after a long day at the office. Well he forgot to read the construction signs and the West Liberty Tunnels just closed today for construction. So he parks his car in front of the tunnels and spends the night hoping they will re-open in the morning.

Pittsburgh is a city of driving obstacles and many people are forced to learn a new route because of these obstacles. It is one of my family traditions to discuss new and exciting routes to various areas of the city/suburbs. Several of my college friends have simply refused to live on the wrong side of the Squirrel Hill Tunnels because of the lack of viable alternate routes.

You may note I never said I didn't now different routes or sometimes use them. I just have a decent feel for how much time they add and won't use them for a typical slowdown. I do try to get whatever basic read on traffic that I can before leaving (the best way is to follow the P-G traffic guy and WPXI traffic on Twitter; between those two you get a generally pretty up to date and pretty accurate picture). If they said there was a fatal accident on one of my sections of highway, then I would go another way. But the residual delay from yesterday's accident for example didn't take up any more time than a route that completely avoided it would. To be considering alternate routes on a day to day basis is generally counterproductive. One of the routes is the ideal route.

When you throw in an obstacle like the Squirrel Hill Tunnel, you're talking about something different. That backs up heavily EVERY SINGLE DAY. It's in a mainly predictable way, sure, but it's a huge backup and if you're coming from far enough east you have very little in good ways to avoid it if you are looking to get downtown. Avoiding the Squirrel Hill Tunnel is about something that significantly lengthens your commute every time. That's quite different than needing an alternate route for an occasional closure or accident.

You gotta keep in mind I'm speaking from nearly 10 years of direct experience coming in on the Parkway North. I'm pretty damn familiar with what constitutes normal and how often it is not normal on 279. I do not see it as necessary to lament the lack of alternates for 279 because it is just not a problem often enough to matter. I don't say this out of theory or secondhand knowledge. I say this out of my own experience having commuted that way a couple thousand times.

Even in a spot where there are multiple good routes, though, one of them should be the ideal route which you will use the vast majority of the time. Why are we arguing about the small minority of times when it is not? Why is that so important to you? I mean, basically, you appear to be making the point that you need to choose a place to live based on alternate routes and exceptions in the daily commute routine. If that is really the case then we couldn't even give Mt Lebanon an advantage for the T because we know the T occasionally breaks. The reason we DO give Mt Lebo that advantage is because MOST of the time the T operates fine. And this is also true of your ideal driving route if you are driving.

Maybe I didn't explain it in that much detail at the beginning, but this is what I meant by remarks like "number of routes is a weird measure" and "only a small minority will change their route with any frequency". Because there's always an ideal route, and the traffic on most days should be similar and predictable. Which means that most of the time you drive the same route. Which means that you use that ideal route for comparison because that is the time it is going to take the vast majority of the times you commute. Comparing two places' driving commutes by any other measure is getting off into the weeds....

[robrobrob]

Originally Posted by greg42

You may note I never said I didn't now different routes or sometimes use them. I just have a decent feel for how much time they add and won't use them for a typical slowdown. I do try to get whatever basic read on traffic that I can before leaving (the best way is to follow the P-G traffic guy and WPXI traffic on Twitter; between those two you get a generally pretty up to date and pretty accurate picture). If they said there was a fatal accident on one of my sections of highway, then I would go another way. But the residual delay from yesterday's accident for example didn't take up any more time than a route that completely avoided it would. To be considering alternate routes on a day to day basis is generally counterproductive. One of the routes is the ideal route.

When you throw in an obstacle like the Squirrel Hill Tunnel, you're talking about something different. That backs up heavily EVERY SINGLE DAY. It's in a mainly predictable way, sure, but it's a huge backup and if you're coming from far enough east you have very little in good ways to avoid it if you are looking to get downtown. Avoiding the Squirrel Hill Tunnel is about something that significantly lengthens your commute every time. That's quite different than needing an alternate route for an occasional closure or accident.

You gotta keep in mind I'm speaking from nearly 10 years of direct experience coming in on the Parkway North. I'm pretty damn familiar with what constitutes normal and how often it is not normal on 279. I do not see it as necessary to lament the lack of alternates for 279 because it is just not a problem often enough to matter. I don't say this out of theory or secondhand knowledge. I say this out of my own experience having commuted that way a couple thousand times.

Even in a spot where there are multiple good routes, though, one of them should be the ideal route which you will use the vast majority of the time. Why are we arguing about the small minority of times when it is not? Why is that so important to you? I mean, basically, you appear to be making the point that you need to choose a place to live based on alternate routes and exceptions in the daily commute routine. If that is really the case then we couldn't even give Mt Lebanon an advantage for the T because we know the T occasionally breaks. The reason we DO give Mt Lebo that advantage is because MOST of the time the T operates fine. And this is also true of your ideal driving route if you are driving.

Maybe I didn't explain it in that much detail at the beginning, but this is what I meant by remarks like "number of routes is a weird measure" and "only a small minority will change their route with any frequency". Because there's always an ideal route, and the traffic on most days should be similar and predictable. Which means that most of the time you drive the same route. Which means that you use that ideal route for comparison because that is the time it is going to take the vast majority of the times you commute. Comparing two places' driving commutes by any other measure is getting off into the weeds....

Some people have the luxury and have a few routes to choose from with commute times that are about the same. For the most part the people that commute in via 279 don't have a viable alternative.

I live up 28, I can take 28 home, go through Lawrenceville or Bigelow. This isn't even going into the options about how to get to each route. The further out you live the less options you have.