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Why wait? What's the advantage to allowing the evil to grow and prosper to just "deal with it at a later time?"
The apostle, Peter, wrote it's because God is patient, and he's waiting for people to repent. I would guess he's holding off on judgment to give people a chance.
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We're in agreement here that it's socialization that plays the major part in moral behavior, not the threat of divine judgement.
I don't much care what it is. Of course a lot of this country's laws have their basis in Biblical commands.
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I suggest that none of them are true. All are a hangover from the neolithic and bronze ages. We're responsible for ourselves and to ourselves, not to some angry middle eastern sky-god.
I agree that we're not subject to some middle-eastern sky-god that is angry.
We are, however, subject to the Creator of the Universe. Your attempt at a straw-man caricature is weak. Frankly, I find that more and more with you guys. You attempt to present straw-man arguments of what we believe in.
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Originally Posted by Strel
This debate begs the question: if Creationism is to be taught, what exactly is going to be taught?
How can you "teach" Creationism, especially in a secular sense?
You can't.
How can you "teach" evolution or the big bang? The evidence is severely lacking for both. Yet, we teach it as fact. Nothing wrong with saying an "alternate theory" is Creationism--that a creator created it. You don't need to go into who or what that Creator is.
Clearly, your argument isn't to teach creation of the universe, but to teach about God.
What else would you like to be a part of that curriculum? "God created it" doesn't make for a course material by itself, it makes for a statement.
Is a whole course built around the Big Bang? Or is it just one statement? I'm ok with presenting facts of what we know, like an expanding universe, etc....and how some people think it points to a Big Bang. Of course, there are many things that make you question it, as well--such as the distribution of matter in the universe.
Likewise, nothing wrong with a few minutes explaining how the amount of order found in nature along with other issues like an infinite regression being impossible would point to a creator.
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Originally Posted by ovcatto
It isn't even in the same ball park.
There is no evidence that supports the theories espoused by creationist, none!
Nothing? Or nothing you care to consider? Would you objectively consider any evidences given?
Is a whole course built around the Big Bang? Or is it just one statement? I'm ok with presenting facts of what we know, like an expanding universe, etc....and how some people think it points to a Big Bang. Of course, there are many things that make you question it, as well--such as the distribution of matter in the universe.
Likewise, nothing wrong with a few minutes explaining how the amount of order found in nature along with other issues like an infinite regression being impossible would point to a creator.
Nature is Libertarian.
God ain't.
That's what I abhor most about all those God lovers - they too, are authoritarian.
If the school offers some kind of Theology or Comparitive Religion class, then it can be taught withing the context of, "The Christians believe..."
Otherwise, no. Its a religous belief. If it is so important, send your kid to a religious school.
Who is advocating that we teach "what Christians believe"?
It's a valid belief regarding the origins of the universe. I have yet to see anyone here provide a reasonable rebuttal to it. Nobody is suggesting we teach it as a religion--only as one theory of how the universe was created.
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Originally Posted by ergohead
Nature is Libertarian.
God ain't.
That's what I abhor most about all those God lovers - they too, are authoritarian.
Is a whole course built around the Big Bang? Or is it just one statement? I'm ok with presenting facts of what we know, like an expanding universe, etc....and how some people think it points to a Big Bang. Of course, there are many things that make you question it, as well--such as the distribution of matter in the universe.
Nope. It ain't "God did it" kind of statement. It requires exploration, into causes and effects, going back and forward. It stimulates human mind, makes them think beyond what a "you better believe it" kind of statement. That I expect in educational system, to make people not only take the word, but to think and explore it themselves. When it came to Big Bang, you, yourself, couldn't stop with just the statement. And that is exactly my point versus "God did it, created the world in 6 days and took a day off, 6000 years ago..."
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Likewise, nothing wrong with a few minutes explaining how the amount of order found in nature along with other issues like an infinite regression being impossible would point to a creator.
The Big Bang? It is much easier to explain than how God created two sources of light (and failed to mention that one of them disappears for a day every month), and how something billions of years old was created six thousand years ago, or that how Adam and Eve's two kids (both male, BTW), procreated... or Cain heading out to nearby village to get married.
Who is advocating that we teach "what Christians believe"?
It's a valid belief regarding the origins of the universe. I have yet to see anyone here provide a reasonable rebuttal to it. Nobody is suggesting we teach it as a religion--only as one theory of how the universe was created.
Who is advocating that we teach "what Christians believe"?
It's a valid belief regarding the origins of the universe. I have yet to see anyone here provide a reasonable rebuttal to it. Nobody is suggesting we teach it as a religion--only as one theory of how the universe was created.
Its a religious belief, pure and simple. It comes from the Book of Genesis which was written by goat herders thousands of years ago. There is absolutely no proof whatsoever, not one iota. I doubt you could find an mention of it by Jesus himself.
Therefore, if it is taught in a public school, it can only be done so within a certain context and in classes that focus on religion and not science. Or should Marxism be studied in an economics class rather than a philosphy one?
My tax dollars are not paid to subsidize your fairy tales.
Nothing? Or nothing you care to consider? Would you objectively consider any evidences given?
What, do you think I was raised on Neptune? Which story do you think that I learned first, creationism or advanced biology? I think it would be fairly obvious that most of us were raised in some sort of religious home, I was no exception. But like the tooth fairy, I gave up my belief in creationism when I was child.
As for the evidence, I've been begging you folks to present your proofs and as yet haven't seen a single piece of data, study or peer reviewed article supporting your contentions. Even my own counter-research has revealed that only evidence creationist can muster are critiques on evolution, nothing in the way of any reliable data supporting their own position.
But post'em if you got'em.
(this should be fun)
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