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I haven't read through the thread yet to see what everyone has said, but I definitely experienced this in "progressive" Portland, Oregon. I really tried to unravel the phenomenon of what felt like a throwback to 1950s racial attitudes in this otherwise pretty progressive city. It was also an obvious phenomenon to those not directly affected by it (i.e. many local white folks). I still can't quite figure it out, but perhaps it is an effect of surrounding regions. Don't know.
Still a fan of PDX but certainly think there is a really ugly aspect to some of the local dialogue there. I have one theory that most of this "ugliness" comes from the scores of transplants who have decided to move there and are disgruntled by job opportunity (or lack thereof) and also take this out on anyone they see fit to label "other," which can be the minority population. Who knows.
I too, lived in PDX, and have the same opinion of it. I think that it had some positive aspects. But it's virulent racism, and lack of jobs, was what drove me outta there.
If an area is racist, they can find ways to keep even well-heeled minorities out. Even if you can afford an apartment, landlords can have stricter requirements if a minority wants to rent an aparment, vs. a potential white tenant.
I've had landlords tell me on the phone, that they would love to rent to me. But then when I've stopped in to complete the application, they see that I'm black, and suddenly find a petty reason that they know is fictitious, not to rent to me. Or, they hold your credit rating against you if you're a minority, but will rent to white tenants who have terrible credit.
In my experience, these things happen in the affluent, majority white neighborhoods. Whereas they tend not to, in the more undesirable areas, where there is more of a minority presence.
Other things that have happened to me, and other minorities that I know, which clue me in that many 'progressive' cities, are still racist. At least in a city's affluent white-majority areas. I'm talking about things like being followed around in stores by clerks, as if you're going to steal something, taking longer to get served in restaurants, than white customers who came in after you, etc.
My point being, that these things that I've discussed that happen to minorities, are indications that they aren't welcome in certain cities and neighborhoods.
I report anyone who discriminates or harasses me by name. I make a big stink about it too. I don't let their bigoted culture get in my way. And that is the problem with so many minorities: they are too silent and too uncommunicative about these problems. Hence, the problems will continue. When one minority says "I'm having a discrimination problem with so and so. Let me describe the situation and provide solutions": they automatically assume it's one bad apple who is complaining and whining. When minorities empower each other in groups or in unison it sometimes has a more powerful effect on hegemonic control: which is why groups are infiltrated and neutralized. But individuals can also be very powerful too because they are not held back by the group: crabs in a barrel syndrome. In a lot of cases individuals have risen way above their colleagues to create great progressive change within societies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn
I too, lived in PDX, and have the same opinion of it. I think that it had some positive aspects. But it's virulent racism, and lack of jobs, was what drove me outta there.
If an area is racist, they can find ways to keep even well-heeled minorities out. Even if you can afford an apartment, landlords can have stricter requirements if a minority wants to rent an aparment, vs. a potential white tenant.
I've had landlords tell me on the phone, that they would love to rent to me. But then when I've stopped in to complete the application, they see that I'm black, and suddenly find a petty reason that they know is fictitious, not to rent to me. Or, they hold your credit rating against you if you're a minority, but will rent to white tenants who have terrible credit.
In my experience, these things happen in the affluent, majority white neighborhoods. Whereas they tend not to, in the more undesirable areas, where there is more of a minority presence.
Other things that have happened to me, and other minorities that I know, which clue me in that many 'progressive' cities, are still racist. At least in a city's affluent white-majority areas. I'm talking about things like being followed around in stores by clerks, as if you're going to steal something, taking longer to get served in restaurants, than white customers who came in after you, etc.
My point being, that these things that I've discussed that happen to minorities, are indications that they aren't welcome in certain cities and neighborhoods.
I don't believe that you just happen to spend your time, 'quizzing' minorities about racism. That's just too coincidental, as is your claimed involvement in both the real estate, and law enforcement fields. So you have absolutely NO credibility with me!
You think that if minorities are educated, 'classy', and have skills, that they don't experience much racism. Racism isn't something that only happens to unskilled, uneducated minorities. It happens to ALL minorities, and it's STILL widespread.
So don't come on this thread and insult my intelligence, by trying to find ways to deny the existence of widespread racism. As sure as the sun rises and sets, widespread racism has existed, does exist, and will probably always exist in our country.
Racism may be more covert than in the past, but it's STILL a big problem in America.
Good afternoon,
How can you be so sure of what I am not doing with my time? Also, have you never heard of anyone changing fields yet keeping up with old colleagues? Let's be clear. I AM Black, I AM a minority, and I have these conversations with Black and minority friends, family members, and clients on a regular basis. The general consensus of people I have known, whose direct grandparents were slaves, and lived during Jim Crow and experienced society afterward is that racism is not as widespread as it used to be. They also agree that most situations (NOT ALL), that are currently seen as racism is actually a result of classless folks being rejected their behavior. I will take the opinions of people closer to real racist events, over someone who doesn't even live near the areas where these horrible events occurred.
I am the type of person who enjoys discussions about politics, current events, and what's going on in our local communities and nationwide. That is how I am able to quiz people I know on a regular basis. I have intellectual conversations, it's not difficult to do. I live in the South, in multiple areas where actual racism, slavery and oppression existed so these topics do come up, believe it or not.
Just because your reality is different from mine doesn't give you a reason to call me a liar in so many words. I've tried to be polite, and can disagree with you tactfully, but obviously you cannot. Maybe your own lack of class shown in your posts is an indicator of the problems you have experienced out in the real world.
For every argument you make there is a better argument made by author Tim Wise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom123
Good afternoon,
How can you be so sure of what I am not doing? Let's be clear. I AM Black, I AM a minority, and I have these conversations with Black and minority friends, family members, and clients on a regular basis. The general consensus of people I have known who have direct grandparents who were slaves, who lived during Jim Crow and experienced society afterward is that racism is not as widespread as it used to be. They also agree that most situations (NOT ALL), that are currently seen as racism is actually a result of classless folks being rejected their behavior. I will take the opinions of people closer to real racist events, over someone who doesn't even live near the areas where these horrible events occurred.
I am the type of person who enjoys discussions about politics, current events, and what's going on in our local communities and nationwide. That his how I am able to quiz people I know on a regular basis. I have intellectual conversations, it's not difficult to do. I live in the South, in multiple areas where actual racism, slavery and oppression existed so these topics do come up, believe it or not.
Just because your reality is different from mine doesn't give you a reason to call me a liar in so many words. I've tried to be polite, and can disagree with you tactfully, but obviously you cannot. Maybe your own lack of class shown in your previous post is an indicator of the problems you have experienced out in the real world.
Addressing anecdotes are difficult because we all have them and they can't really be challenged. He says he's a minority with a different pov. It also doesn't read to me that he's attempting to insult your intelligence. If anything he's having an intelligent and calm dialog with you.
Whatever the case, he did take the time to read your links (as I did) and respond. You haven't challenged any of his responses and I'm not sure why. I hope you, or someone in this thread, can answer my questions. For example, to address your first link, is it true that black potential home buyers typically use black realtors and mortgage brokers? I have no idea. If it's the case, tho, then it wouldn't be about race, per se, at least on the sole parts of whites. Further, what I don't understand is how these financial institutions would know race to begin with. Perhaps my memory is poor, but I do not recall putting race on any applications. I did not meet anyone at my financial institution either. I had a realtor, a second party (I guess) mortgage broker that shopped for loans, and a lawyer.
My mortgage broker was not the lender. I guess he was the interim lender, but he recommended an FHA loan. I don't see the problem with that either. FHA loans typically have lower interest rates and require lower down payments with FHA loans only requiring 3.5% down and conventional loans requiring 20% down. The PMI is also lower and if a person does not have 20% to put down then they're paying PMI. Of course, if a person has 20% to put down on a home they will opt to avoid PMI.
When I got my loan, my broker advised me not to put down as much as I wanted, which would have been about 20k on 225k home. I would need a >40k down payment to avoid PMI or a soft second mortgage. Now, 100% financing is not the way to go either, but in the end I found that he was correct. I put down 5% and sat on the rest of my monies. Little did I know as a first time home buyer that the 15k I sat on would get absorbed in the blink of an eye.
Frankly, if whites were being guided away from FHA loans when qualified I don't see how that's discrimination against blacks. Further, conforming conventional loans have a higher max limit (~400k). If a person only has 17k or less to put down on a home, they have no business needing a loan for 400k. All that will do is get people in trouble. Further, the median home price in Pittsburgh is 200k, so I'm not following the argument. There is a salary cutoff to qualify for FHA loans. If any of these people in this study qualified for FHA loans they were low earners to begin with (black or white).
So, on the one had we have an argument that FHA loans, which typically have lower interest rates than conventional loans for low earners, are being pushed on blacks and then we have the argument that higher interest rates are being pushed on blacks in the same breath. I know full well predatory lending exists, but the argument here doesn't make sense to me. Or, perhaps I got suckered in my loan process, but it doesn't seem that way. Who knows.
+1.
This is a spot on analysis of FHA loans and why steering people towards them is a benefit and not discrimination. Also, helping people keep more of their down payment in their pockets is typically seen as a positive tactic.
I'm not saying predatory lending doesn't exist, but one cannot ignore the fact of minorities going to mortgage brokers of the same race for financing. The comparisons have to be apples to apples before defining if it's actual discrimination.
How to really prove it? Send whites to black brokers, blacks to the same black brokers, then send whites to white brokers, and blacks to the same white brokers, all with the same credit/income history and then do the study.
Most people who do these studies don't always understand the nature of the field they are studying since they are academics and not financiers who understand the higher commission advantages of FHA loans, and of high rate subprime loans in the past.
Something else to consider to consider with predatory lending is what's noted in the last link I provided...
"There was the charge for years that minorities were underserved," says Karl Case, an economics professor who specializes in housing at Wellesley College in Massachusetts. "Now the attitude is reversed. Instead of discrimination, [lenders] are taking people who are not sophisticated, talking them into low-down-payment, high-ratio, interest-only, and stated-income mortgages, and we call it predatory lending."
So, you can have two people with the same credit score, the same income, and the same family dynamic, but a predator might not be able to talk both into the same mortgage package. Predators care about one color and that's green.
Also spot on, from what I have both read and seen in the industry.
For every argument you make there is a better argument made by author Tim Wise.
Good afternoon,
Why the rolling eyes, sir? This is a friendly debate in my eyes, condescension and sarcasm in your question about Dr. Sowell isn't needed to disagree with my point of view, unless it's in self-defense. I have done nothing to you to warrant self-defense in this or any other thread.
I am not Dr. Sowell. In my posts, you will see that I live in the South. Without looking up, I am pretty sure Dr. Sowell teaches at Stanford, and is from Harlem.
Feel free to post any rebuttals you have for any topic I have commented on (or Tim Wise's rebuttals you'll use as a surrogate) and I would love to share the ones I agree or disagree with. I am not some ideologue who thinks racism or discrimination doesn't exist at all, I can simply show other possibilities for individual situations. I refuse to be intellectually lazy and throw out the blanket "racism/discrimination" terms for every single situation that seems negative towards a minority instead of conducting a detailed analysis.
I will happily call "racism" in cases where it truly exists.
It's not your decision to conduct a detailed analysis now is it? Nor is anyone relying on you for anything in regard to "racism". If minorities looked up to you or Dr. Thomas Sowell for the answers we would be doomed. Individuals need to rely on themselves not you or any other demagoguery. Hegemony is a well known sociological concept that affects every single society: and in the USA white people are the "superior class" and they will continue to reinforce their advantages and privileges for decades to come. There is a history of it. It's reality.
You probably think workplace mobbing is not about racism or bigotry: it's because of a "personality conflict," "misunderstandings," or "bad work ethic". All of which terms will easily get a hostile bigot out of trouble and somehow advantaged (i.e., if I can say somebody has "bad work ethic" and create a personality conflict that puts me at an advantage and I will have more power. Go ahead and give your omniscient elucidations on workplace mobbing, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom123
I refuse to be intellectually lazy and throw out the blanket "racism/discrimination" terms for every single situation that seems negative towards a minority instead of conducting a detailed analysis.
I will happily call "racism" in cases where it truly exists.
Good afternoon,
How can you be so sure of what I am not doing with my time? Also, have you never heard of anyone changing fields yet keeping up with old colleagues? Let's be clear. I AM Black, I AM a minority...
Well, there ya go.
Quote:
Just because your reality is different from mine doesn't give you a reason to call me a liar in so many words. I've tried to be polite, and can disagree with you tactfully, but obviously you cannot. Maybe your own lack of class shown in your posts is an indicator of the problems you have experienced out in the real world.
Take care.
What is also reflective in posts is level of depth and thoughtfulness. What I see on this forum is a few posters making the same statements over and over, but they never offer any kind of analysis. They will post authors, books, and links, but never give their interpretation to allow a reader to understand where they're really coming from and why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by artsyguy
Are you Dr. Thomas Sowell?
For every argument you make there is a better argument made by author Tim Wise.
And this is a perfect example for what I stated above. It's two dimensional content. You made a statement to me in the past about something he said. I ask for a source. You give me a link to his website. You didn't even bother finding the source for the quote content. You just left it out in space.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom123
This was a major issue too, but I didn't bring it up in my previous post.
Well, poor grammar any where. Even here I see folk boasting that they are white collar professionals, calling themselves greatly educated, and blaming racism for their plight while exhibiting atrocious grammar.
Since when is putting a comma before "that" correct in a majority of circumstances? Here's an example..."I've had friends tell me on the train, that they would love to go to a movie."
I see the above mistake all the time from one poster. I'm no grammar Nazi and we all mistakes from time to time, but the consistency of errors is clearly a problem. It drives me nuts to read given the content of the posts.
/rant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom123
+1.
This is a spot on analysis of FHA loans and why steering people towards them is a benefit and not discrimination. Also, helping people keep more of their down payment in their pockets is typically seen as a positive tactic.
Yea, again that's how I took it. After working the figures with varying down payment amounts, the monthly bill did not change all that much. IIRC, it was 'keep 10k or save <$50/mo". And unless you're rich and moving into a new home, the money is going to be needed. We blew through our savings.
Quote:
I'm not saying predatory lending doesn't exist, but one cannot ignore the fact of minorities going to mortgage brokers of the same race for financing. The comparisons have to be apples to apples before defining if it's actual discrimination.
How to really prove it? Send whites to black brokers, blacks to the same black brokers, then send whites to white brokers, and blacks to the same white brokers, all with the same credit/income history and then do the study.
Most people who do these studies don't always understand the nature of the field they are studying since they are academics and not financiers who understand the higher commission advantages of FHA loans, and of high rate subprime loans in the past.
We didn't have an opportunity to read the actual study. It was interpreted through a columnist if IIRC, so who knows what the methods were.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom123
Also spot on, from what I have both read and seen in the industry.
It's certainly not something that folk like to address.
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