Has socialism ever been successful? Examples, please? (employment, wages, salaries)

[donsabi]

Cuba a socialist country ranks much higher in healthcare than the US which is ranked somewhere around 38th trailing some third world countries. If capitalism is so good why are American children going hungry, people dying for lack of medical care, and citizens who once worked and paid mortgage and taxes now homeless and without a job?

The only problem with socialism is greedy people. The odd thing it is greedy people are the ones who are destroying America.

[Moth]

Originally Posted by Grim Reader

It seems to be a uniquely American error to believe social benefits equals socialism. From the American viewpoint, social policies and capitalism become points on the same line, and more of one must necessarily mean less of the other.

For example, Norway has universal health care, free university education, 5 weeks vacation, a year of maternity/paternity leave and a host of other social benefits. Denmark has similar benefits. From the US point of view, this is pretty socialist. Yet both countries have a ferocious capitalist sector with higher levels of entrepeneurship than America.

To other countries, social benefits are political settings, socialism and capitalism are economic systems. You can in fact regulate both independently.

Yes.

What it comes down to is Europe and Canada, particularly the Nordic countries, have a marginally more generous welfare system.

Well...fine. What of it?

Some may marvel at that and some may point out that it has begun to strain their finances. Some may say that Europe is simply more consensus minded than the individualistic USA.

Yes, college is free in places like Germany and Denmark. Why then does not everyone attend? Why are there still young Danes who acheive nothing more than becoming street sweepers or taxi drivers? Could it be that they filter the amount of people who are eligible to attend?

Universal health care. Certainly some appeal there. Takes a lot of stress out of society and actually helps businesses, both big and small. No argument there. Yet if one reads a UK newspaper for a time, one cannot help but notice an ever-present array of complaints about the NHS. If these systems hummed along without major problems, would the US not have adopted one decades ago? To say nothing of Canadian officials who come to the USA for treatment thus disdaining their own cherished systems.

The modern welfare state was not created by a bunch of beareded proto-Socialists. It was created by Otto von Bismarck, a guy who would have enjoyed pulverizing anyone left of Margaret Thatcher.

These countries are not so much Socialist as they are simply more Statist. Good for them. Last time I looked they were not our colonies. I have lived over there. Their marginally more generous welfare states come with their own problems. There is no silver bullet.

We have a welfare state ourselves. Is is so great that it must be forever expanded? Or do you all just wish it was staffed by guys named Lars, Jens, and Pierre rather than those grim faces down at the Social Security office?

Not a sermon. Just some thoughts.

[Moth]

Originally Posted by donsabi

Cuba a socialist country ranks much higher in healthcare than the US which is ranked somewhere around 38th trailing some third world countries. If capitalism is so good why are American children going hungry, people dying for lack of medical care, and citizens who once worked and paid mortgage and taxes now homeless and without a job?

The only problem with socialism is greedy people. The odd thing it is greedy people are the ones who are destroying America.

Cuba does not rank higher than anybody on anything. Cuba is a broken-down, oh-so-typical Latin American Thugocracy run by a bunch of goons in funny uniforms.

Cuba has either been held afloat by Soviet subsidies or Venezuelan subsidies. Cuban doctors cannot even give out aspirin, except to foreign patients paying in hard currency. Yea, really Socialistic.

Holding Cuba up as an example to be emulated is like touting the 52 year old stoner still living in his parents' basement as a success story.

[Kirdik]

Originally Posted by donsabi

Cuba a socialist country ranks much higher in healthcare than the US which is ranked somewhere around 38th trailing some third world countries.

Do you really believe that?

[swagger]

Originally Posted by donsabi

Cuba a socialist country ranks much higher in healthcare than the US which is ranked somewhere around 38th trailing some third world countries.

Where'd you hear that? Don't bother answering - I already know.

Have you ever looked at the methodology of that WHO study? Don't bother answering - I already know - you haven't.

That study gives more weight to "accessibility" than virtually any other factor considered. It was designed to support the socialist style European systems and make the American for-profit system look bad. If you're an honest person and you look at the details of the study, that fact cannot be denied. Of course, that would involve actually reading some really boring stuff, so I wouldn't expect someone who actually thinks that Cuba has good health care for all to bother even looking it up, much less reading it.

Stop letting Michael Moore (or anyone else, for that matter) do your thinking for you. I know, it's not as easy, but sometimes a little work goes a long way in improving yourself.

Originally Posted by donsabi

If capitalism is so good why are American children going hungry, people dying for lack of medical care, and citizens who once worked and paid mortgage and taxes now homeless and without a job?

The only problem with socialism is greedy people. The odd thing it is greedy people are the ones who are destroying America.

Wow, you really do just parrot talking points. Have you ever actually had an original thought?

[Grim Reader]

Originally Posted by Kirdik

Do you really believe that?

Depends on what you consider "better". Cuba certainly gets more health care per dollar than the US. It is probably the top health care system in the Third World. Best in class. Just not a very good class.

Originally Posted by Moth

Universal health care. Certainly some appeal there. Takes a lot of stress out of society and actually helps businesses, both big and small. No argument there. Yet if one reads a UK newspaper for a time, one cannot help but notice an ever-present array of complaints about the NHS. If these systems hummed along without major problems, would the US not have adopted one decades ago? To say nothing of Canadian officials who come to the USA for treatment thus disdaining their own cherished sy lstems.

There are problems with both types of approach. But all problems are not created equal. America would give its left arm for many of the UHC problems. Just the cost difference would finance welfare systems every bit as good as the European ones and eliminate the national debt. Just the fact that the British press complain about things that would be considered luxuries in the US...

And there is a reason why 15 times as many people leave America for medical treatment, as the number of people entering.

[Kirdik]

Originally Posted by donsabi

The only problem with socialism is greedy people. The odd thing it is greedy people are the ones who are destroying America.

If socialism is so good why the Soviet Union dropped it and switched to
capitalism after 70 years of free stuff they had been enjoying?

[olecapt]

Originally Posted by Kirdik

Public schools, Medicare, Medicaid, the VA Social Security and so forth.

Don't forget about state programs like RomneyCare in Massachusetts or instate tuition for illegals in CA.

Not even close. No tuition...not scholarships.

Forever unemployment insurance.

Not insurance. Free medical care.

There is nothing even close in the US.

You pushing an agenda? This is not a close call.

[Kirdik]

Originally Posted by olecapt

Not even close. No tuition...not scholarships.

Forever unemployment insurance.

Not insurance. Free medical care.

There is nothing even close in the US.

You pushing an agenda? This is not a close call.

No agenda. I'm just saying that we have plenty of socialism and it's destroying our economy.

[Moth]

Originally Posted by Grim Reader

Depends on what you consider "better". Cuba certainly gets more health care per dollar than the US. It is probably the top health care system in the Third World. Best in class. Just not a very good class.



There are problems with both types of approach. But all problems are not created equal. America would give its left arm for many of the UHC problems. Just the cost difference would finance welfare systems every bit as good as the European ones and eliminate the national debt. Just the fact that the British press complain about things that would be considered luxuries in the US...

And there is a reason why 15 times as many people leave America for medical treatment, as the number of people entering.

I disagree. Both America and Europe have modern welfare states. One might be marginally generous than the other. Both are going broke from them.

There really is no issue here.

This is an irrelevant debate. Why don't you advocate Zimbabwe, Mexico, or Saudi Arabia being more like Europe?

Look, we all have drank beers at a cafe on the Platz, Place, Piazza, etc and stared at those nice, old buildings. Its easy to do that and forget that modern Europe can present a pretty grim face as it has a multitude of problems.