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I am not trying to link the two symbols' meanings but more of the similarities in logic and reasoning for continuing its use. The most common reason I hear is heritage and pride. Surely, the swastika with its centuries of positive meaning and religious pride deserves to be shown proudly too. But there seem to be a hypocritical perspective from rebel flag supporters when it comes others using the same logic and reasonings to display the swastica. I keep seeing reasons like that's because the swastika represents something worse than slavery or that its a evil nazi meaning vs a honorable confederacy meaning (this part is the most amusing, cause they are actually comparing their non tainted version of the flag with the tainted version of the swastica, that would be like me comparing the untainted honorable religious roots of the swastika with the tainted slavery confederate flag)
Knowing how much meaning the untainted confederate flag has, you will get upset when ppl put it down. But now that you know what the swastika really means, would you also be upset if you found out ppl decide rip up a hindu yoga school because they use swastica symbol for their school. Would you be upset if ppl demanded nintento to redraw a cartoon because one of the characters bears a buddhist swastica symbol, would you be upset if microsoft decides to include asian fonts, but take out its good luck swastica because it might offend others. There are many other such cases that ppl displaying the confederate has not gone through besides being put down on online forums.
I don't know what logic others have used, so I can't speak on whether it was hypocritical or not. I can only give you my answer (posted). But if we are talking "taint" then as has been agreed upon by most early on, almost EVERY symbol carries some negative baggage to someone or some group. This includes the United States flag as well (because it flew over slave ships, or was carried when violating treaties with the Indians, etc). So one could just as easily ask the same question ala' the swastika.
Personally, while acknowledging imperfections, I am going to see the American Flag in a more untainted light than, say, a member of the AIM or a radical Muslim. Just as, as a Southerner, I would see a more untainted Confederate Flag. This isn't illogical or hypocritical to make such distinctions as it is simply a fact of human thinking and rationale based on historical perpectives, political philosopy, experience, and yes, culture and place of birth.
On the other hand, I believe I have said before, I CAN understand, based on these same factors, why others may not see an "untainted" Confederate Flag. My purpose here is simply to give my own take on it, as well as facts which, I hope might change some minds. Further, as I noted earlier too, for someone to whom the Nazi philosophy has no connection with their own vision of the swastika (religious, philosophical, ancestry) then I would understand their position, and wish them luck in changing minds.
As to the second part, you ask if I would be "equally upset", knowing (which in fact I did know some of this prior) more of the original swastika, if someone tried to pull it down as opposed to the Confederate Flag. Well, on public and private property, if the flag did not belong to them, and was displayed legally, then it would be a violation of the law in any case. However, to address the question, of course I would not be as bothered. BUT... not withstanding long held perceptions, the reason would be that, untainted or not, the swastika has no personal meaning for me. I wouldn't get affected much either if someone pulled down a Canadian Flag, or that of the state of New Jersey for the same reasons. I have nothing against either, but they have no heart-felt symbolism for me either. But, agree or not, I could understand that others may see it totally the opposite.
I hope this might clear up a few things!
Now then, I gotta get going and take care of some things unconnected to my Southern heritage! Such as my job!
Unfortunately, due to more pressing offline responsibilities (impending medical license exam), I'll have to end my part of the conversation here. I may post a one liner here and there, but probably not anything long or substantive. I'll try to think carefully about the issues you raised, and may post again in the future (but not if this thread is long dead and buried). Like I said before, we're not changing anyone's mind here, but its definitely been more fun than studying for a test.
Sorry, I misread your post earlier, and failed to address it properly. Of course it is a big caveat. I agree totally. However, free to do what is also an important corollary aspect of it!
I feel that deep down persons who fly the Confederate flag do not consider themselves Americans. I am American, so I fly the star-spangled banner, not stars and bars.
If you are referring to the Confederate battle flag, that is NOT the Stars and Bars. Not only do you totally misrepresent what others 'feel' or 'think', you have not entered the discussion with the minimal prerequisite knowledge of the symbol under consideration.
During the Civil War, Kentucky had both Confederate and Union flags flying over it. Although Kentucky never seceded from the Union, from the beginning of the war until late 1863 the Confederate flag was most prominently used in the state as well as a white battle flag with a smaller version of the "Stars and Bars" in the lefthand corner. General John Hunt Morgan, with his infamous raids from July 1861 to July 1863, established Confederate occupancy throughout much of the southern and central portions of the state until his and his division's capture by Federal troops near Lisbon, Ohio in July of 1863. Morgan escaped on November 26, 1863. Placed in command in East Tennessee and southwestern Virginia the next year, he was surprised and killed at Greeneville, Tennessee, on September 4, 1864.
During the Civil War, Kentucky had both Confederate and Union flags flying over it. Although Kentucky never seceded from the Union, from the beginning of the war until late 1863 the Confederate flag was most prominently used in the state as well as a white battle flag with a smaller version of the "Stars and Bars" in the lefthand corner. General John Hunt Morgan, with his infamous raids from July 1861 to July 1863, established Confederate occupancy throughout much of the southern and central portions of the state until his and his division's capture by Federal troops near Lisbon, Ohio in July of 1863. Morgan escaped on November 26, 1863. Placed in command in East Tennessee and southwestern Virginia the next year, he was surprised and killed at Greeneville, Tennessee, on September 4, 1864.
What was the name of the second flag Don D.?
The flag on top is the true "Stars and Bars" and was the first national flag of the Confederacy. However, because of its intentional resemblence to the United States flag when viewed from a distance on the battle field, a new flag was designed.
This new design was deemed the "Battle Flag" (or the "Southern Cross")and is the one most people call the "Confederate Flag" today, although it was never officially adopted by the CSA government. THIS one was the one most popular with troops in the field, and there were also many variations on it (square, rectangular, enlarged center stars, etc). It is often incorrectly called the Stars and Bars.
Also, because of the Stars and Bars (First National Flag) resemblence to the U.S. flag, a new national flag was needed. That is the second one you posted, and it was called the "Stainless Banner" because of the large white field. Again, although the battle flag was never officially adopted, its design was very popular, so its likeness (not the Stars and Bars) became the canton of the flag.
This flag too had problems as on a windless day and viewed from a distance, it was sometimes confused with being a flag of truce. Soooo, a THIRD flag was designed, which was essentially a modification of the Stainless Banner. The difference was that the white field was shortened a bit (the Stainless banner you posted is a bit innacurate in its dimensions, as the white area in the actual flag was a noteably longer), and a vertical red bar added to the fly end. The battle flag canton was kept. This was simply called the Third National Flag.
Here is a site that gives quite a bit of history on the various flags of the Confederacy as well as quite a few illustrations (especially near the bottom of the page):
During the Civil War, Kentucky had both Confederate and Union flags flying over it. Although Kentucky never seceded from the Union, from the beginning of the war until late 1863 the Confederate flag was most prominently used in the state as well as a white battle flag with a smaller version of the "Stars and Bars" in the lefthand corner. General John Hunt Morgan, with his infamous raids from July 1861 to July 1863, established Confederate occupancy throughout much of the southern and central portions of the state until his and his division's capture by Federal troops near Lisbon, Ohio in July of 1863. Morgan escaped on November 26, 1863. Placed in command in East Tennessee and southwestern Virginia the next year, he was surprised and killed at Greeneville, Tennessee, on September 4, 1864.
What was the name of the second flag Don D.?
Well, I come in from work for lunch and find that Reb, who is a teacher, has answered for me. He of all people knows that one pupil does not answer when another has been called to answer..........but, anyway.
Missymomof3; you say in your post that the white battle flag had a small version of the Stars and Bars in the left hand corner. That is simply not accurate, as what appears in the left hand corner is a confederate battle flag and, at one time, a Confederate Naval Jack, NOT the Stars and Bars. Nor was the (mostly) white flag a 'battle flag'. It was a National Flag. Although all of the states had their own flags to display over their troops in combat and at rest (as did various armies within states), there was only one Confederate National Battle Flag and you have not yet put it up for display.
While shouting, "Let me! Let me!", LOL, Reb has correctly identified the flag posted first as the Stars and Bars. From wherever you 'copied and pasted' your Kentucky flag history........they got it absolutely wrong.
Some will be surprised to know that the various Indian nations also had their flags during the conflict. Examples are the Cherokee Nation of the Trans-Mississippi Department and the Flag of the Choctaw Brigade. These were Confederate Indian flags.
I don't think either Reb or I is (yes, either is is correct) trying to split hairs or provide flag-trivia lessons here, rather we're merely correcting the misstatements made by others. And the misstatements are not irrelevant to the conversation. In fact they are the backbone of it.
Well, I come in from work for lunch and find that Reb, who is a teacher, has answered for me. He of all people knows that one pupil does not answer when another has been called to answer..........but, anyway.
Missymomof3; you say in your post that the white battle flag had a small version of the Stars and Bars in the left hand corner. That is simply not accurate, as what appears in the left hand corner is a confederate battle flag and, at one time, a Confederate Naval Jack, NOT the Stars and Bars. Nor was the (mostly) white flag a 'battle flag'. It was a National Flag. Although all of the states had their own flags to display over their troops in combat and at rest (as did various armies within states), there was only one Confederate National Battle Flag and you have not yet put it up for display.
While shouting, "Let me! Let me!", LOL, Reb has correctly identified the flag posted first as the Stars and Bars. From wherever you 'copied and pasted' your Kentucky flag history........they got it absolutely wrong.
Some will be surprised to know that the various Indian nations also had their flags during the conflict. Examples are the Cherokee Nation of the Trans-Mississippi Department and the Flag of the Choctaw Brigade. These were Confederate Indian flags.
I don't think either Reb or I is (yes, either is is correct) trying to split hairs or provide flag-trivia lessons here, rather we're merely correcting the misstatements made by others. And the misstatements are not irrelevant to the conversation. In fact they are the backbone of it.
Respectfully, Don D.
Ooooops! My apologies to you Don (and to missymom). I failed to notice that the question was addressed to you. But hey, I saved you a lot of typing, anyway! But seriously, you are quite correct in your last paragraph! Thanks!
[quote=Don D.;1447247]
Some will be surprised to know that the various Indian nations also had their flags during the conflict. Examples are the Cherokee Nation of the Trans-Mississippi Department and the Flag of the Choctaw Brigade. These were Confederate Indian flags.
Don, here is a site which depicts the one of the Cherokee Nation, as well as a First National variation used as a regimental banner for a Texas unit, which includes stars for the various tribes.
Well, I come in from work for lunch and find that Reb, who is a teacher, has answered for me. He of all people knows that one pupil does not answer when another has been called to answer..........but, anyway.
Missymomof3; you say in your post that the white battle flag had a small version of the Stars and Bars in the left hand corner. That is simply not accurate, as what appears in the left hand corner is a confederate battle flag and, at one time, a Confederate Naval Jack, NOT the Stars and Bars. Nor was the (mostly) white flag a 'battle flag'. It was a National Flag. Although all of the states had their own flags to display over their troops in combat and at rest (as did various armies within states), there was only one Confederate National Battle Flag and you have not yet put it up for display.
While shouting, "Let me! Let me!", LOL, Reb has correctly identified the flag posted first as the Stars and Bars. From wherever you 'copied and pasted' your Kentucky flag history........they got it absolutely wrong.
Some will be surprised to know that the various Indian nations also had their flags during the conflict. Examples are the Cherokee Nation of the Trans-Mississippi Department and the Flag of the Choctaw Brigade. These were Confederate Indian flags.
I don't think either Reb or I is (yes, either is is correct) trying to split hairs or provide flag-trivia lessons here, rather we're merely correcting the misstatements made by others. And the misstatements are not irrelevant to the conversation. In fact they are the backbone of it.
Respectfully, Don D.
That was something I copoed and pasted from a Kentucky gov't website. Thank y'all for your responses Texasreb and Don D.
That was something I copoed and pasted from a Kentucky gov't website. Thank y'all for your responses Texasreb and Don D.
If you have time, and are of a mind to, you ought to write to the Kentucky Government Website and call their inaccuracy to their attention. I assume they would want to know that they have posted to the worldwide web historically inaccurate information. I am frankly surprised that a state government entity would employ and retain (probably in the archives and history department) someone who so inaccurately portrays historical events and 'facts'.
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But seriously, you are quite correct in your last paragraph! Thanks!
