The National Debt isn't the problem (Obama, examples, federal government, programs)

[dreamofmonterey]

I knew we were in trouble in '07 seeing Bank of America with their HELOC loans at 30% interest. and they were preying on those with under 400k worth of assets.

[jambo101]

Got this humorous email the other day on how to fix the economy, thought i'd pass it on....

suggestion for fixing the American economy.
>
> Instead of giving billions of dollars to banks that will squander the
> money on lavish parties and unearned bonuses, use the following plan.
>
> You can call it the Patriotic Retirement Plan:
>
> There are about 10 million people over 50 in the work force.
>
> Pay them $ 2 million each severance for early retirement with the
> following stipulations:
>
> 1) They MUST retire.
> Ten million job openings - unemployment fixed
>
> 2) They MUST buy a new American, car
> Ten million cars ordered - Car Industry fixed
>
> 3) They MUST either buy a house or pay off their mortgage -
> Housing Crisis fixed
>
> 4) They MUST send their kids to school/college/university -
> Crime rate fixed
>
> 5) They MUST buy $100 WORTH of alcohol (a couple of jugs of good wine
> ) /tobacco a week .....
> And there's your money back in duty/tax etc
>
> It can't get any easier than that!

[gwynedd1]

Originally Posted by pghquest

Sorry but you dont get to just say "it holds no relevance" if it disputes your argument.. Try again.

You didnt answer the question, you only changed the subject.. Try again.

What the hell are you talking about? They borrow money ALL THE TIME. Ever hear of US Treasury auctions? I've wasted enough time on this ridiculous thread. For all of your studying, you dont seem to know much about economics. Ooh wait, thats right, you studied Marx, Keynes theories.. How do they work in the real world? FAILURE!!

So what you are basically saying is that I can't give my friend an IOU or ask for even more in return by promising to pay interest on the IOU. If I just give a dollar IOU, I should expect the same from an IOU plus interest? Which IOU do you think will have the most velocity? Where do you think dollars originate from? Aliens? Its a fiat currency back by government power. If the government wasn't the original producer we would be the dumbest country ever to exist kind of like the Euro-zone.

Sorry but I think my diamond bit drill has finally bent boring into your ossified skull that seems to have no actual deposit.

[pghquest]

Originally Posted by gwynedd1

So what you are basically saying is that I can't give my friend an IOU or ask for even more in return by promising to pay interest on the IOU. If I just give a dollar IOU, I should expect the same from an IOU plus interest? Which IOU do you think will have the most velocity?

Whether you give your friend an IOU, or your friend gives you one, with or without interest, the net money in circulation hasnt changed

Originally Posted by gwynedd1

Where do you think dollars originate from? Aliens?

The Federal Reserve. I thought you studied all of this already?

Originally Posted by gwynedd1

Its a fiat currency back by government power. If the government wasn't the original producer we would be the dumbest country ever to exist kind of like the Euro-zone.

The federal reserve isnt the government.

Originally Posted by gwynedd1

Sorry but I think my diamond bit drill has finally bent boring into your ossified skull that seems to have no actual deposit.

You havent been able to dispute ONE statement I've made. you only change the subject and go off into lala land thinking you made some point but you dont. Did you flunk out of those economics classes, or did you pass with flying colors considering you were studying failed theories.

[JimMe]

Originally Posted by gwynedd1

I am tired of seeing it posted so I am going to savagely attack this idiotic, OP ed favorite of junk economics.

1. The national debt is the money supply. The debt is the sum total of dollars that was created by the government. It prints money by running deficits because we use a double entry system where one debt = one credit. The rest of the money is created by bank loans, also a double entry system with a few exceptions like coins which are debt free.

2. Its who owns the debt that matters which can be the FED, US institutions, citizens, and foreign. The unqualified nominal amount of debt is meaningless. Debt to self is largely meaningless unless of course its used as money. One of the fasted growing areas of our debt is to the FED which is at 1.7 trillion. It actually reduces real debt since it dilutes the rest of it. The debt isn't being increased to buy anything; its being used to create money. Its their incompetent or corrupt use of the liquidity that is the problem. Not a single tax payer was bailed out.

3. It does not all need to be paid back. It must not all be paid back, and to do so would destroy the money supply almost entirely.

4. The US trade deficit is the same issue. Even US treasury coins that are not created with the debt facade as "debt free" money still becomes "check book", zero interest debt when it leaves our shores(dollars are check book money and bonds are saving account money). The problem is when other countries like to use our money because it goes out but never comes back in. The real problem is that the US economy is now only a small part of the world economy. So we are now highly leveraged. Its the bonds and outstanding dollars that comprise the foreign debt which has all meaning; the nominal national debt has none.

The real problems are

* mortgage debt to GDP ratio
* high land prices
* foreign debt and shrinking share of world economy increasing dollar leverage
* dollar carry trade
* zero interest rate policy

If you continue to whine about the national debt, you are listening to some brain dead main stream economic pundit provided for you as cover while in the real world they are field striping the country.

Ask the Greeks whether national debt is a problem.

[hawkeye2009]

Originally Posted by gwynedd1

I am tired of seeing it posted so I am going to savagely attack this idiotic, OP ed favorite of junk economics.

1. The national debt is the money supply. The debt is the sum total of dollars that was created by the government. It prints money by running deficits because we use a double entry system where one debt = one credit. The rest of the money is created by bank loans, also a double entry system with a few exceptions like coins which are debt free.

2. Its who owns the debt that matters which can be the FED, US institutions, citizens, and foreign. The unqualified nominal amount of debt is meaningless. Debt to self is largely meaningless unless of course its used as money. One of the fasted growing areas of our debt is to the FED which is at 1.7 trillion. It actually reduces real debt since it dilutes the rest of it. The debt isn't being increased to buy anything; its being used to create money. Its their incompetent or corrupt use of the liquidity that is the problem. Not a single tax payer was bailed out.

3. It does not all need to be paid back. It must not all be paid back, and to do so would destroy the money supply almost entirely.

4. The US trade deficit is the same issue. Even US treasury coins that are not created with the debt facade as "debt free" money still becomes "check book", zero interest debt when it leaves our shores(dollars are check book money and bonds are saving account money). The problem is when other countries like to use our money because it goes out but never comes back in. The real problem is that the US economy is now only a small part of the world economy. So we are now highly leveraged. Its the bonds and outstanding dollars that comprise the foreign debt which has all meaning; the nominal national debt has none.

The real problems are

* mortgage debt to GDP ratio
* high land prices
* foreign debt and shrinking share of world economy increasing dollar leverage
* dollar carry trade
* zero interest rate policy

If you continue to whine about the national debt, you are listening to some brain dead main stream economic pundit provided for you as cover while in the real world they are field striping the country.

Sure. Tell that to Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal. I am sure that they will believe you. Unfortunately, the believed the Keynesians, which is why they are in dire straits.

Do you crave an economic situation like that of Zimbawe? If so, ignore federal spending.

[gwynedd1]

Originally Posted by pghquest

Whether you give your friend an IOU, or your friend gives you one, with or without interest, the net money in circulation hasnt changed

One economic chart you can rely on is the inverse relationship emoticons have with substance. An IOU comes into existence when one agrees to owe. If it is from a trusted source and supports trade it becomes a new unit of exchange expanding the supply of money. Get it? Trading, debt, IOU not barter, money. ..

Of course you don't get it. You never get it.

The Federal Reserve. I thought you studied all of this already?

I did, you just keep getting it wrong.

The federal reserve isnt the government.

Its a Federal agency created by congress, albeit with far too much power granted to commercial banks. Is the EPA like a business in your world?

You havent been able to dispute ONE statement I've made. you only change the subject and go off into lala land thinking you made some point but you dont. Did you flunk out of those economics classes, or did you pass with flying colors considering you were studying failed theories.

I have answered everyone of them. You just can't figure out the debt as money paradox. IOUs are fungible and do not function merely for there use-value of repayment. However that would actually require having any idea what money is which is something of value that functions as supporting trade, hence a government IOU that can pay taxes.When government owes you, its worth a lot. I'll take a government IOU any day. Then again that is exactly how I am paid everyday. You gotta wind up that rubber band some more...

Just saying I didn't answer it doesn't make it true. Its also pretty obvious since every response is basically in an insulting and arrogant tone.

[pghquest]

Originally Posted by gwynedd1

One economic chart you can rely on is the inverse relationship emoticons have with substance. An IOU comes into existence when one agrees to owe. If it is from a trusted source and supports trade it becomes a new unit of exchange expanding the supply of money. Get it? Trading, debt, IOU not barter, money. ..

Of course you don't get it. You never get it.

You didnt at all address my statement, of course not, you never do. I know very well what an IOU is, if you look through my past postings here you'll see that I LIVE OFF OF THEM, government created ones at that. Why dont you stop babbling and respond to what I said?

Originally Posted by gwynedd1

I did, you just keep getting it wrong.

I didnt get a dam thing wrong, and you saying I did is just meaningless.

Originally Posted by gwynedd1

Its a Federal agency created by congress,

A lot of things are created by Congress, for example, they mandate safety standards in cars.. Are you telling me the government owns all cars on the road then? What am I to conclude by your meaningless babble and inability to respond to what I say without changing the topic?

Originally Posted by gwynedd1

albeit with far too much power granted to commercial banks. Is the EPA like a business in your world?

Whats the EPA have to do with the subject? Cant you stop hijacking your own thread and respond with some sign of intelligence?

Originally Posted by gwynedd1

I have answered everyone of them. You just can't figure out the debt as money paradox. IOUs are fungible and do not function merely for there use-value of repayment. However that would actually require having any idea what money is which is something of value that functions as supporting trade, hence a government IOU that can pay taxes.When government owes you, its worth a lot. I'll take a government IOU any day. Then again that is exactly how I am paid everyday. You gotta wind up that rubber band some more...

Just saying I didn't answer it doesn't make it true. Its also pretty obvious since every response is basically in an insulting and arrogant tone.

You have not responded, you just keep changing the subject just like this.

Here, I'll give you ANOTHER chance..

How does you and I exchanging an IOU create money and change the amount of currency in circulation? I take government IOU's constantly, (see above) my buildings are primarily occupied by government agencies, and I accept their 20+ year leases in exchange for promises to pay, but how the hell does a lease agreement between the government and I change the amount of money in circulation?

[gwynedd1]

Originally Posted by hawkeye2009

Sure. Tell that to Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal. I am sure that they will believe you. Unfortunately, the believed the Keynesians, which is why they are in dire straits.

Do you crave an economic situation like that of Zimbabwe? If so, ignore federal spending.

If you knew anything about the Maastrict and Lisbon treaties then you know that Keynesian economics is not even possible. Sovereign debt is not monetized in the Euro-zone. Keynesian economics uses deficit spending, not bond revenue which does not expand the money supply. A deficit caused by tax reductions is not government spending, just the increase of money in supply. The reason why Keynes did not believe in merely expanding the money supply is due to currency hoarding environments where increases in M1 are not effective due to the falling velocity of money.

The policy assumes the actual structure of the institutions and your assumptions cannot even apply to the EU.


I am actually trying to stop the Zimbabwe dollar but the banksters have most of you looking at the national debt while they are printing dollars on their keyboards in dollar carry trade. They thank you for shutting down their only competitor in credit. Stagflation is just what we all needed.

[gwynedd1]

Originally Posted by pghquest

You didnt at all address my statement, of course not, you never do. I know very well what an IOU is, if you look through my past postings here you'll see that I LIVE OFF OF THEM, government created ones at that. Why dont you stop babbling and respond to what I said?

but you just keep telling me that debt can't be money.

I didnt get a dam thing wrong, and you saying I did is just meaningless.

You have gotten most of it wrong.

A lot of things are created by Congress, for example, they mandate safety standards in cars.. Are you telling me the government owns all cars on the road then? What am I to conclude by your meaningless babble and inability to respond to what I say without changing the topic?

Golly, what do cars have to do with it? Are you changing the subject?

That's you above to a plus sized model-T

I am not the one boiling over. The chairmen is appointed by Congress unlike the CEO of GM. Not everything fits in like educational block toys of round block goes into round hole like you are used to. Its known as subtleties. There is no Car Act.

Whats the EPA have to do with the subject? Cant you stop hijacking your own thread and respond with some sign of intelligence?

See carjacking above...

You have not responded, you just keep changing the subject just like this.

Here, I'll give you ANOTHER chance..

How does you and I exchanging an IOU create money and change the amount of currency in circulation?

If people will trade with it, then its currency. My IOU is not very liquid thus it adds almost no effective exchange. Commercial paper is much closer to a currency. It doesn't increase the legal tender, just currency. Only government IOU's increase the legal tender.

I take government IOU's constantly, (see above) my buildings are primarily occupied by government agencies, and I accept their 20+ year leases in exchange for promises to pay, but how the hell does a lease agreement between the government and I change the amount of money in circulation?

It doesn't. That's a function of you and the Treasury. That just comes from Treasury general funds. That doesn't create new money. Only actions with the Treasury and the Federal Reserve creates new money. The Fed is the only one with a technically infinite balance sheet. In this case the money happens to also be the legal tender.