why do people who believe being gay is a choice, not just simply go to the source and ask gay people? (represent, house)

[Ceist]

Originally Posted by Roaddog

go back and read the thread, I was stating about what I had said in THIS thread, I'm sorry if you didn't actually read it before you jumped in.

Give it up. You've been posting for a few years on these forums that you think homosexuality is choice or a mental illness.

In this thread alone you agreed with Taratova when he said "it's a choice to some degree".

In all the years that you have been posting that you think homosexuality is a choice or a mental illness, you still haven't been able to explain how it's a choice, or what the pathology is that would make homosexuality a mental illness. And you haven't been able to come up with any evidence or research that support your opinions.

[valerie d]

Originally Posted by Jaymax

SEXSEXSEX! Is that all you think about? But if you must reduce people to just their sexual behavior and nothing else - Over 40% of heterosexuals engage in anal sex and 90% in oral sex.




What are you talking about?

Every mainstream health organization worldwide agrees that homosexuality is a normal variant of human sexuality and is not a 'choice'. That's millions of educated, qualified, experienced, health clinicians and researchers. Do you think they are all gay?



And who is 'us'? You don't speak for all heterosexuals. Not all heterosexuals are ignorant and prejudiced about people who are different to them.

If you 'don't care' - Go play nasty with yourself and don't even open the 'gay themed' threads.

Rarely do I post on such threads I think they should ban them from politics and controversies to their own media and if they did I believe you would be speaking exclusively among yourselves.

I think those academics are either gay or driven to be politically correct by a militant social agenda regards such controversies.

I think it is impossible to seperate the act from the actor.

[Roaddog]

Originally Posted by Jaymax

Give it up. You've been posting for a few years on these forums that you think homosexuality is choice or a mental illness.

In this thread alone you agreed with Taratova when he said "it's a choice to some degree".

In all the years that you have been posting that you think homosexuality is a choice or a mental illness, you still haven't been able to explain how it's a choice, or what the pathology is that would make homosexuality a mental illness. And you haven't been able to come up with any evidence or research that support your opinions.

So whats your problem? I've always said it is a combination of a choice by some and a mental illness, no change in my opinion from the start. Your constant bickering proves my point. Try to keep up with the current thread and stop the childish bickering.
I was commenting with the other poster about our conversation, it's real simple to understand if you read it.

[Ceist]

Originally Posted by valerie d

I think you would be grossly wrong about that statistic. Grossly wrong.

No. The figures are from a National Survey Report on the CDC website:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nsfg/abc_list_s.htm#analsex

Originally Posted by valerie d

I am curious. Maybe I just need to understand you better. What in the workings of a mans brain turns him off about a womans vaginal and turns him on about another mans anus?

Both have very strong biological references for use/ One for contraception pleasure and child bearing the other for eliminating waste!

Umm.... your vagina is used for eliminating waste as well. So is a penis.

Originally Posted by valerie d

Maybe those accepting academics you allude to have an agenda. Don't be so militant about it just explain yourself. I am taking you in a direction you don't want to go and you don't like it.

You have been made excuse for and molly coddled too long. I have met gays that I truly do believe have a biological precondition I believe cannot be easily explained. I think the majority is a choice a sociological conditioning that went awry.

The 'direction' you want to go has no evidence to support it and has been disproved for years. Why would anyone who is more up to date and educated on the topic want to go in that 'direction'?

Considering how easy it is to find information from reputable health/science sources these days, I think people who choose to remain willfully ignorant about the topic of homosexuality and insist on spreading theor uninformed prejudiced opinions, have been 'molly-coddled' for far too long.

The following information has already been posted in this thread, but here it is again. It's just a small sample of information/research/studies available to those who want to inform themselves.


Royal College of Psychiatrists:

"Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation. It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment."

__________________________________________________ ____


American Academy of Pediatricians:

"...there is no scientific evidence that abnormal parenting, sexual abuse, or other adverse life events influence sexual orientation".

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/pediatrics;113/6/1827.pdf


__________________________________________________ __________

Sexual hormones and the brain: an essential alliance for sexual identity and sexual orientation (2010)
Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35. Epub 2009 Nov 24. Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF.

The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) andsexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb.

However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in trans-sexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain.

There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation

__________________________________________________ _____


Gay brains structured like those of the opposite sex - life - 16 June 2008 - New Scientist

Brain scans have provided the most compelling evidence yet that being gay or straight is a biologically fixed trait.
The scans reveal that in gay people, key structures of the brain governing emotion, mood, anxiety and aggressiveness resemble those in straight people of the opposite sex.

The differences are likely to have been forged in the womb or in early infancy, says Ivanka Savic, who conducted the study at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden.

"This is the most robust measure so far of cerebral differences between homosexual and heterosexual subjects," she says.

Previous studies have also shown differences in brain architecture and activity between gay and straight people, but most relied on people's responses to sexuality driven cues that could have been learned, such as rating the attractiveness of male or female faces.

Brain symmetry
To get round this, Savic and her colleague, Per Lindström, chose to measure brain parameters likely to have been fixed at birth.

"That was the whole point of the study, to show parameters that differ, but which couldn't be altered by learning or cognitive processes," says Savic.
"This study demonstrates that homosexuals of both sexes show strong cross-sex shifts in brain symmetry," says Qazi Rahman, a leading researcher on sexual orientation at Queen Mary college, University of London, UK.

"The connectivity differences reported in the amygdala are striking."
"Paradoxically, it's more informative to look at things that have no direct connection with sexual orientation, and that's where this study scores," says Simon LeVay, a prominent US author who in 1991 reported finding differences(pdf) in a part of the brain called the hypothalamus between straight and gay men.

PET and MRI show differences in cerebral asymmetry and functional connectivity between homo- and heterosexual subjects
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...66105.abstract

__________________________________________________ ________

"A growing body of empirical literature suggests that the brains of gay males are less masculinized than those of heterosexual males, reflected in visual-spatial task performance -- a measure of cerebral masculinazation and one in which heterosexual males usually surpass females.

Several studies report that the cognitive performance of gay males is more typical of heterosexual females than heterosexual males.

Furthermore, the brain waves of gay males while performing verbal and spatial tasks are more similar to heterosexual females than males or significantly different from both."

Relationships among childhood sex-atypical behavior, spatial ability, handedness, and sexual orientation in men. Cohen KM. Arch Sex Behav. (2002)

Relationships among childhood sex-atypical be... [Arch Sex Behav. 2002] - PubMed - NCBI

[Ceist]

Originally Posted by valerie d

Rarely do I post on such threads I think they should ban them from politics and controversies to their own media and if they did I believe you would be speaking exclusively among yourselves.

I think those academics are either gay or driven to be politically correct by a militant social agenda regards such controversies.

I think it is impossible to seperate the act from the actor.

So you think millions of 'academics', scientists, doctors, pediatricians, psychiatrists, psychologists, counsellors etc all around the world....are gay or have a militant social agenda. Seriously?

[valerie d]

Originally Posted by Jaymax

So you think millions of 'academics', scientists, doctors, pediatricians, psychiatrists, psychologists, counsellors etc all around the world....are gay or have a militant social agenda. Seriously?

"millions" You are delusional. Yes, these academics are the same fools that have devolved society in a number of ways. Even so, not all would dismiss sociological impact of conditioning.

[valerie d]

Originally Posted by Jaymax

No. The figures are from a National Survey Report on the CDC website:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nsfg/abc_list_s.htm#analsex




Umm.... your vagina is used for eliminating waste as well. So is a penis.



The 'direction' you want to go has no evidence to support it and has been disproved for years. Why would anyone who is more up to date and educated on the topic want to go in that 'direction'?

Considering how easy it is to find information from reputable health/science sources these days, I think people who choose to remain willfully ignorant about the topic of homosexuality and insist on spreading theor uninformed prejudiced opinions, have been 'molly-coddled' for far too long.

The following information has already been posted in this thread, but here it is again. It's just a small sample of information/research/studies available to those who want to inform themselves.


Royal College of Psychiatrists:

"Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation. It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment."

__________________________________________________ ____


American Academy of Pediatricians:

"...there is no scientific evidence that abnormal parenting, sexual abuse, or other adverse life events influence sexual orientation".

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/pediatrics;113/6/1827.pdf


__________________________________________________ __________

Sexual hormones and the brain: an essential alliance for sexual identity and sexual orientation (2010)
Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35. Epub 2009 Nov 24. Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF.

The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) andsexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb.

However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in trans-sexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain.

There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation

__________________________________________________ _____


Gay brains structured like those of the opposite sex - life - 16 June 2008 - New Scientist

Brain scans have provided the most compelling evidence yet that being gay or straight is a biologically fixed trait.
The scans reveal that in gay people, key structures of the brain governing emotion, mood, anxiety and aggressiveness resemble those in straight people of the opposite sex.

The differences are likely to have been forged in the womb or in early infancy, says Ivanka Savic, who conducted the study at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden.

"This is the most robust measure so far of cerebral differences between homosexual and heterosexual subjects," she says.

Previous studies have also shown differences in brain architecture and activity between gay and straight people, but most relied on people's responses to sexuality driven cues that could have been learned, such as rating the attractiveness of male or female faces.

Brain symmetry
To get round this, Savic and her colleague, Per Lindström, chose to measure brain parameters likely to have been fixed at birth.

"That was the whole point of the study, to show parameters that differ, but which couldn't be altered by learning or cognitive processes," says Savic.
"This study demonstrates that homosexuals of both sexes show strong cross-sex shifts in brain symmetry," says Qazi Rahman, a leading researcher on sexual orientation at Queen Mary college, University of London, UK.

"The connectivity differences reported in the amygdala are striking."
"Paradoxically, it's more informative to look at things that have no direct connection with sexual orientation, and that's where this study scores," says Simon LeVay, a prominent US author who in 1991 reported finding differences(pdf) in a part of the brain called the hypothalamus between straight and gay men.

PET and MRI show differences in cerebral asymmetry and functional connectivity between homo- and heterosexual subjects
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...66105.abstract

__________________________________________________ ________

"A growing body of empirical literature suggests that the brains of gay males are less masculinized than those of heterosexual males, reflected in visual-spatial task performance -- a measure of cerebral masculinazation and one in which heterosexual males usually surpass females.

Several studies report that the cognitive performance of gay males is more typical of heterosexual females than heterosexual males.

Furthermore, the brain waves of gay males while performing verbal and spatial tasks are more similar to heterosexual females than males or significantly different from both."

Relationships among childhood sex-atypical behavior, spatial ability, handedness, and sexual orientation in men. Cohen KM. Arch Sex Behav. (2002)

Relationships among childhood sex-atypical be... [Arch Sex Behav. 2002] - PubMed - NCBI

So if most gay men identify in their brains as women then I guess that makes them lesbians.

[Ceist]

Originally Posted by Roaddog

I never said it's achoice.

Originally Posted by Roaddog

So whats your problem? I've always said it is a combination of a choice by some and a mental illness, no change in my opinion from the start. Your constant bickering proves my point. Try to keep up with the current thread and stop the childish bickering.
I was commenting with the other poster about our conversation, it's real simple to understand if you read it.

LOL! Make up your mind.

___________________________________________

You can express any opinion you want over and over and over again ad nauseum. But when your opinion has no evidence to support it and goes against all the evidence to the contrary, then that opinion is rather worthless.

But hey, no one is trying to stop you from expressing it. It's rather entertaining.

[irishvanguard]

Why not ask gays? Because they, just like other people, are often dishonest with others as well as themselves. Just like other people, they can be delusional and defensive and give answers that only perpetuate what they want to believe instead of the absolute truth.

[hammertime33]

Originally Posted by irishvanguard

Why not ask gays? Because they, just like other people, are often dishonest with others as well as themselves. Just like other people, they can be delusional and defensive and give answers that only perpetuate what they want to believe instead of the absolute truth.

To what extent? If you asked 100 gays, how many do you think would lie about whether they consciously chose to be attracted to member of the same sex or not?