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You know.. I was thinking about something interesting. People keep complaining "oh, the extra taxes are going to cause me all sorts of financial mess because I'm having to support someone else..." when it comes to universal healthcare.
However, those people would actually have -more- money for their families. They wouldn't be spending the money they are now on insurance. I don't know the estimates for the average American family insurance... but I'm sure it's a lot more per paycheck than the taxes that would be taken out.
I live in a state that pays 1 or 2 of the highest taxes in the nation, and I make more than the national average. We get back less from Washington than we give.
My tax dollars are paying for your services. So suck it up. I'm paying your bills.
You are not paying for my "service" - police, fire, trash, water etc.
I'm pleased for you that you are happy paying your high taxes -
Personally, I'm glad that I, who also makes far more than the national averages, have more to spend providing a great quality of life for my family -
However, those people would actually have -more- money for their families. They wouldn't be spending the money they are now on insurance. I don't know the estimates for the average American family insurance... but I'm sure it's a lot more per paycheck than the taxes that would be taken out.
You seem to be forgetting several things:
1) NHI - government run - government does not have a good track record at running things
2) Loss of freedoms - the freedom to CHOOSE what kinds of coverages you want - the loss of freedoms to see whoever you want whenever you want. And the loss of freedom to get necessary healthcare immediately if need be (don't believe me - REALLY check out Canada's model) -
I like my choices now - I pay for my choices now - I get the coverages I want now -
1) NHI - government run - government does not have a good track record at running things
2) Loss of freedoms - the freedom to CHOOSE what kinds of coverages you want - the loss of freedoms to see whoever you want whenever you want. And the loss of freedom to get necessary healthcare immediately if need be (don't believe me - REALLY check out Canada's model) -
I like my choices now - I pay for my choices now - I get the coverages I want now -
What freedom to see whoever you want whenever you want? Most coverage plans, from what I've looked at, have specific doctors that you'd have to go to for the best "coverage". That's not freedom. I've seen no true freedom - Optima, Anthem, Aetna, Kaiser, and a few local ones.
And to get necessary healthcare immediately, there's the ER. You just won't have to spend $5K+ for it. There'd also be no need for Medicaid, Medicare.. Military hospitals would be able to take on anybody.
Just because you have a "great plan" that will take care of your family doesn't mean that everybody has the luxury. The current system is broken. I don't have to look at Canada's model, I'm looking at the real modern world Germany, Netherlands, Sweden. There's three countries with excellent systems. I have very close friends in those countries - none of them have any complaints.
The current system is arbitrary. Those who have money for the "excellent" plans that cover whatever they want are happy. Everyone else gets screwed. Instead of paying for a dime and losing the ability to to choose your own doctor... you'd rather pay a $20 and sit on your high horse. Gotta love America.
I am not concerned with folks like Greatday that can afford the current system. I am concerned with people (like me if I ever lost this job) that cannot. Reducing the affluence of the wealthy by implementing a universal health care system does not bother me one bit. If I were wealthy enough to afford private insurance I might be annoyed but as I do not ever expect to achieve that affluence I don’t care.
I also object to connecting health insurance with employment. Health has nothing to do with employment except to get you fired if you get sick (personal experience) and to allow the employer to be a petty tyrant by holding his employees in thrall for health insurance. Employers are tyrannical enough in a contracting economy to need to threaten a workers health as well as their wealth.
I'm not aware of any emotion-based arguments I've made recently, but what bothers me isn't "the fact that you have personal experience at the bottom of the ladder and worked your way up the top as well as having a wife who has worked in both the insurance and lending industry to see how irresponsible people are," rather it's the fact that you, like 95% of social darwinist right wingers, then extrapolate that over millions and millions of people, assuming that you have some sort of psychological knowledge of how their brains work and their personal motivations and capacities, because of a few "poor people with $40,000 cars" that you've heard of. This type of thinking is just as retarded as the guys who call into the AM radio shows about how "Global warming can't be real because it was so cold in Boston this winter," and are then egged on and supported by the hosts who know they're not making any sense but like to appeal to the "base" so they can boost their ratings and establish their ideological purity before the eyes of the masses.
Your position seems to stand on the fact that the "majority" of people who are having hardships are somehow in a position that they had nothing to do with. Positions like yours use examples of people with major medical conditions that severely hamper their lives and attempt to explain them off as the norm.
Don't think I am unaware of the "required reading" many who share your position use as proof. I have read much of it and it takes samples it decides will best fit its purpose and then attempts to claim that most people are suffering from a bad hand to which they have no control or ability to change. It uses major assumptions about the conditions and glorifies instances by handcuffing itself and claiming they can't change, or excel.
As I said, my wife worked in the "medical insurance" industry for several years. While you may think you know what is going on, that the system is some "evil" entity filled with suits picking the pockets of the honest citizen, that is far from an accurate assessment.
As I said, many of the claims they had issues with were due to doctors offices being irresponsible and not filing the proper paper work, patients picking plans they didn't read and didn't follow the procedures to which those plans refer. Government health care plans taking abnormal times to receive verification and approval with the insurance company's hands tied waiting for the bureaucratic process to process the information so they can actually get the patient taken care of.
My points about my wives lending experience isn't a "couple" of people a day, but the majority of the people she speaks with as well as all those who work in her corporate office.
And don't think that "poor" people are the ones with this irresponsible behavior. She gets calls from businesses and high wage individuals as well. People making 160k a year but can't seem to make ends meet (poor souls) who refuse to part with the 3 50k cars they are "leasing".
Just listen to your local financial show and you will hear all sorts of people calling in to whine about their problems, yet refusing to take the advice of the host on how to solve their problems because they can't give up all those "cool" items they have in order to get themselves out of debt.
As I said, I have been at the bottom, I learned about debt early on and I have learned about the steps it takes to live responsibly. While you may throw a few dollars at the homeless guy to make yourself "feel good", I stop and talk to them to "help them help themselves".
I have worked with many people throughout the years by helping them recognize a "want" vs a "need", showing how it is important to read their contracts and seek opportunities to repair their debt and live with all the necessities while only making small amounts of money. Showing them how to educate themselves own their own so they can move up in the job to be able to afford schooling to which they can achieve a better life. These people learned self respect and learned that they didn't need to rely on anyone but themselves. That nothing gets accomplished by riding the coat tails of other, they must do it themselves.
I have worked with people like this, have you? Who have you helped that you did more than just throw money at them thinking that will solve all their problems? What did those people learn that you did help? That they can't survive, the sky is falling and the reason their life is in the toilet is because someone else put it there? That the system is "evil" and against them? Wow, thats so inspiring it makes me want to rush out in the world and succeed!
I have read many supports in this thread with "special" cases each more and more explained to be "nothing they could do" and the odds were stacked against them using that example as a means to demand a forced system to save the rest of the world from this fate. While there may be situations where this is true, it is not everyone and using it as an example of impending doom is misrepresenting the issue and doing nothing more than to fuel those who are not in those situations to a line of excuses as to why they can't improve themselves.
Seems to me that you do the people a great disservice. That your position is actually a poison to successful venture in the world. You tell people they "can't", well... not without your benevolent help as they just aren't smart enough or strong enough to do anything on their own. You tell them they need the government to think for them, help them, and manage them.
You also turn this into a political issue with your itching to categorize my comments by claiming I am a right wing wacko.
The simple fact is that many people are irresponsible. They don't budget, they over spend, live beyond their means and personally I am a bit sick of hearing about some sob story of a family that had more kids than they could afford, bought a house on a variable interest rate using multiloan techniques to attempt to afford it, lease their cars, eat out all the time, own cell phones, watch cable tv, have the internet, buy clothing that is brand name, and spend on items of "luxury" while I did all of the opposite choosing "lesser" living styles to make sure I could save, afford education, pay for private health insurance, life insurance and live in a way that allowed me to prepare for my future.
So please excuse me if I don't send my money to your "church of doom" and bow down at your alter of "the sky is falling". I know better.
What freedom to see whoever you want whenever you want? Most coverage plans, from what I've looked at, have specific doctors that you'd have to go to for the best "coverage". That's not freedom. I've seen no true freedom - Optima, Anthem, Aetna, Kaiser, and a few local ones.
The #1 greatest threat to the American economy is a future in which consumers save their money, rather than spending it. No spending money = no jobs to make money to save.
That's a hard truth, and a paradox I don't see many "rugged made it on my own" economic individualists being able to square.
You know.. I was thinking about something interesting. People keep complaining "oh, the extra taxes are going to cause me all sorts of financial mess because I'm having to support someone else..." when it comes to universal healthcare.
However, those people would actually have -more- money for their families. They wouldn't be spending the money they are now on insurance. I don't know the estimates for the average American family insurance... but I'm sure it's a lot more per paycheck than the taxes that would be taken out.
The bottom 50% of the people paying taxes will most likely see little of an increase, but the top 50% will end up paying quite a bit more. Seriously, look who is paying all the taxes as it is.
js-1287: Fact Sheet: <br> Who Pays The Most Individual Income Taxes? (http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/js1287.htm - broken link)
The poor will not have to worry about it. They never had to worry about taxes in the first place. They aren't paying much if any. So why wouldn't they see a tax increase as not a big problem? Its like having your friend pay the bill at the restaurant's and saying that you aren't worried about the cost of what you spend on because, well... you aren't picking up the bill.
You are not paying for my "service" - police, fire, trash, water etc.
I'm sorry you don't like that little fact. But us New Yorkers (and Californians) are subsidizing your public services. We pay more taxes than come back to our states. Therefore, you are taking the dole from us. We don't complain about it really. That's what shared sacrifice is all about.
So spare me you rugged individualism. I'm subsidizing your lifestyle. So don't you forget it!
Quote:
Personally, I'm glad that I, who also makes far more than the national averages, have more to spend providing a great quality of life for my family -
As I said, I'm subsidizing your lifestyle. You aren't providing a great quality of life without my help.
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Germany, Netherlands, Sweden. There's three countries with excellent systems. I have very close friends in those countries - none of them have any complaints.
