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The first is that the effects of the economic changes in this country are, today, hurting members of the baby boom generation as well as the millennials, and that's completely true. While the increased difficulty in starting a career and raising a family right have more broadly impacted the younger generation, the impact of forced early retirement -- especially for people who don't have adequate savings -- is far worse on the individual level.
I'm sure you realize that forced retirement is due to employers' policies and not the employees'. Don't you?
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Originally Posted by ALackOfCreativity
The second is that the average baby-boomer man-on-the-street (who isn't unusually rich or powerful in any given way) can't be blamed for the financial problems currently plaguing this country. That's mostly true, but not completely. While most people didn't do anything directly, they sure as heck did vote for the politicians who either failed to address or quite often, caused or made worse the problems that have put is in the financial straits we are in today: unsustainable entitlement design, uncontrolled medical cost inflation, unnecessary wars, and a bloated military-industrial complex all financed with debt.
Yes. Yes, we did vote them into office. Yet, I'm still puzzled how this is the boomers' fault. Did we have a crystal ball or psychic available who could tell us that these politicians weren't honest and true to their promises? Did we know they were meeting in secret, behind closed doors, with lobbyists who were filling their pockets and providing them perks, if they would vote on a measure that would benefit the company the lobbyist was representing? I surely didn't.
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Originally Posted by ALackOfCreativity
While the housing crisis was also largely contributed to by common folks, I think it's excusable to forgive people for their role in that mistake. Generations of "buying is better than renting" being the common wisdom.....of course many people aren't going to run the numbers or look at historical trends and see a bubble.
Housing prices go up and down over the course of time. Anyone who has purchased and owned a home over the past 70 years knows that. The bubble, of which you refer, was abnormal. Never, over the course of time, has a house gained over 100% of it's value in five years. That is abnormal and should be suspect. Those who took advantage of it and sold out before the crash, did quite well for themselves. It allowed them to move on and possibly out of the area they were currently living. It feathered their nest egg with some much needed money (if that's what they chose to do).
Anyone with a basic understanding of real estate prices should have seen that the skyrocketing prices could not be sustainable. Side note: At one point in this state, during the height of the housing market, only 3% of state residents could afford to buy a house. 3%!!! That's utterly outrageous and despicable, imo. But that had nothing to do with buyers and sellers. It had everything to do with sleazy lending practices perpetrated by banks and mortgage companies on people who wanted to purchase a home. As I stated in a previous post, buyers should have known what they could afford. Typically, two and a half times your yearly income is the rule. That's not to say that the crash wouldn't have happened as recessions occur about every seven years, anyway.
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Originally Posted by ALackOfCreativity
When I say that the baby boomers destroyed the old economic American dream, I mean more aptly that it died under their watch than that they did any one specific thing that caused it.
And you don't think we made any effort to stop it? Is that right? May I remind you that our elected officials come from the different districts all across this nation. I certainly wouldn't have re-elected Barney Frank after learning of his unscrupulous business dealings with Countrywide. For that matter, I'd be interested to know just how many of those DC fat cats benefited from Countrywide's preferred lending offers to these people while the people on my level were paying over 10K closing fees on a loan. Americans vote politicians into office they believe will give them what they need. I wouldn't dream of re-electing the likes of Nancy Pelosi but she's not from my district, so I have no say. Do you see where I'm going with this?
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Originally Posted by ALackOfCreativity
There are many possible specific causes, any one of which or a combination thereof could be to blame, and I don't know which and would be surprised if anyone did. To throw out several possibilities: the dissolution of the traditional family unit, allowing other countries to free-ride off us on medical/pharma R&D (goes to medical cost inflation), largely halting the establishment of more medical schools since the population was only 3/4 what it is now (ditto), opening up free trade in a way strongly disadvantageous to the first world, the slow disappearance of the apprenticeship culture in most industries, the related morphing of education from an educating institution to a credentialing institution, the impact of the failures of public finance discussed above, the shifting of the tax system from one tilted slightly toward (benefiting) labor to one tilted strongly toward (benefiting) capital, the list could go on substantially longer.
All valid points, although not due to the boomer population. Thank business for those problems and don't even get me started on Big Pharma. If ever there was a dishonest bunch they would be it. I will agree with you there aren't as many intact families as in previous years. If you go back and see when this culture began to change, it was around the time women were leaving abusive relationships to strike out on their own, finally going after college degrees that reached beyond the traditional teaching and nursing careers. As women began making enough money to live, they left abusive relationships. Children were in daycare centers or became "latchkey" kids.
Hate to break it to you but colleges and universities are run by the Board of Regents. We have no control over what they do. Look to them for the rise in educational costs. They claim it's due to paying for the best educators but it's mainly to pad their own accounts with outlandish salaries. Taxpayers are the ones footing that bill. Taxpayers are also paying for the horrendous retirement pensions. Pensions that, in my opinion, are suspect. You're not going to get any complaints from those who are reaping the benefits of those pensions. Heck, I wouldn't either if I was drawing a pension of 15K a month.
The population of this country is enormous. There aren't enough watchdog organizations to keep tabs on all that's going on.
Let's face it, the free-trade agreement was destined to culminate in what we have now. We're no longer a single country, relying on our own population to create jobs and produce products. When was the last time you purchased a television, radio, coffee maker, towel, or a pair of trousers that were actually made in the USA?
You may be right, though. Maybe if people had demanded more USA made products and not succumbed to the low prices of foreign made products, we might be in a different place.
The point is, this is a global nation we now live in. It didn't happen because boomers weren't paying attention. It happened because people want progress. And that's what they got. Like it or not.
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Originally Posted by ALackOfCreativity
P.S. - Even though I disagree with you on some of the specific issues we are discussing here, just want to say that I agree very strongly with the values you have expressed and wish more people - of all generations - also shared them.
I appreciate that. Thank you. And I commend you for being bright enough to realize that there are a lot of reasons why some things are as they are, today. Still, to blame entire population of boomers for the situation we have in this country is unrealistic and wrong. What's also unrealistic is that you cannot expect to have things in your life work the same way as they did 30, 40 or even 50 years ago. Things change. Times change and you have to change with them. If you want an education, there are ways to achieve that. If you want a successful business, you can achieve that too. Take a look at some of the stories written by boomers who were displaced from their jobs and see what they've done with their lives. They've re-invented themselves, either through entrepreneurial small businesses or virtual companies on the net. You know, it wouldn't hurt a few of these young whiners, who feel life is so unfair, to look at some of the boomers and take a lesson from the page book.
Oh and so I don't have to create another post, let me just say that I agree with you about the music today. There is some really terrific music out there. Being a little long in the tooth, I will hearken back to my roots; i.e. the Stones, Bob Seger, Fleetwood Mac, James Taylor, The Beatles and .... well, you get the idea.
Baby Boomers were given a great country on a silver platter by the generation that birthed them. They could've worked and afford school at the same time. They grew up in the most prosperous era in US history. Most Baby Boomers could've owned their own homes and cars without any type of education. Can millenials do that? It's impossible. Baby Boomers are by far the most entitled generation in US history. However, they made things worse for their children's generation.
I have yet to figure out what a baby boomer or a millenial is. I was born in 1960 but that does not mean I was old enough to know I supposedly was raised in the most prosperous era in US History. My Mother would disagree with you as well. Not everyone in that era could afford to pay for school, own a home or a vehicle because of their economic situation.
I personally feel my Mother made things better for me because of what she sacrificed to keep and raise my brother and I. She raised us as a single parent working in a general electric factory because the sperm donor legally known as my dad decided to live his life in prison most of the first 10 years of my life. When he was out of prison he did not work, drank excessively, spent all of the money he could steal from her on alcohol and was very violent whether he was drinking or not.
In my opinion your view is quite skewed which is probably a result of the environment you were raised in. Since I was raised in the real world by an independent strong willed hard working woman on her own I will definitely be forever grateful I have the life I have as an adult and I could never repay my Mother for all of her sacrifice and the things she taught me about real life.
The second is that the average baby-boomer man-on-the-street (who isn't unusually rich or powerful in any given way) can't be blamed for the financial problems currently plaguing this country. That's mostly true, but not completely. While most people didn't do anything directly, they sure as heck did vote for the politicians who either failed to address or quite often, caused or made worse the problems that have put is in the financial straits we are in today: unsustainable entitlement design, uncontrolled medical cost inflation, unnecessary wars, and a bloated military-industrial complex all financed with debt.
Now here's yet another instance where your argument breaks down. The issues you bring up -- unsustainable entitlements, unnecessary wars, debt financing etc. -- all had their beginnings decades ago, when us boomers were still toddling about, if not when we were still twinkles in our parents' eyes. I was too immersed in learning multiplication tables when Johnson was fashioning his Great Society, too busy popping zits in the mirror when Nixon was bombing Cambodia, too intent on cruising for boys when Ford was trying to Whip Inflation Now, and too busy looking for a job in a 14 percent unemployment environment when Reagan touted his trickle-down theory.
Boomers didn't come into power until the 1990s. And oddly enough, our generation isn't the only one voting, then or now.
Now here's yet another instance where your argument breaks down. The issues you bring up -- unsustainable entitlements, unnecessary wars, debt financing etc. -- all had their beginnings decades ago, when us boomers were still toddling about, if not when we were still twinkles in our parents' eyes. I was too immersed in learning multiplication tables when Johnson was fashioning his Great Society, too busy popping zits in the mirror when Nixon was bombing Cambodia, too intent on cruising for boys when Ford was trying to Whip Inflation Now, and too busy looking for a job in a 14 percent unemployment environment when Reagan touted his trickle-down theory.
Boomers didn't come into power until the 1990s. And oddly enough, our generation isn't the only one voting, then or now.
So your accepting no blame? You'll probably be too busy as this country continues to head down hill.
We've disagreed quite a bit on this thread but I'd like to applaud you for rebutting with reason and keeping things classy. We're all going to disagree on one topic or another, but even if we disagree, there's always things to be learned and acknowledged by listening to other's view point.
You've made a lot of good points. I appreciate your contribution.
If you use 1978 as the beginning of the "Millennials", they have been voting since 1996, 16 years now.
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Originally Posted by Yooperkat
Ah,
OK - I used a more recent date.
So they've been voting since the Clinton era.
Our generation still doesn't have a majority vote on most issues. The Boomers hold all positions of power (we can't appoint Millenial representatives), control the media (which influences all elections), and have the financial means to promote their agenda/platform.
The voting power is clearly in the hands of the Boomers.
Anybody track the NATO protest this past weekend? I'm sure many of you are on hear complaining about the wars and the economy but will be the FIRST to throw stones at the protesters the weekend. I'm not saying this is the position of all Boomers, but how do you expect things to change when your doing nothing to make your voice heard??
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