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That makes quite a bit of sense. I am pro-choice though personally I dislike abortion, what's always bothered me though is the pro-life people who make an exception in the case of rape, because they see the child as being unlovable even though they are totally innocent.
That's what doesn't make sense to me. If they are more concerned about the baby's life, then why do they suddenly let that go when it involves rape/severe disability/life-threatening birth? I respect Kathryn Aragon's pro-life position more than pro-"lifers" who are only sometimes pro-life, because at least she's consistent and honest in labeling her beliefs.
I don't even know if I would choose for sure to abort if I was raped again. But I do know that I would want that choice legally.
Orphanages basically violently wipe out children emotionally and spiritually.
I spent the first 3 years of my life in an orphanage, and went back to visit. I also volunteered with orphans for several years as an interpreter between the orphans and prospective American parents.
Many of the children were severely disabled from medical neglect. Abuse was rampant. There's also a world of difference between a one-time rape and years upon years of abuse (and in some cases rape) as a child. Many of the children I worked with were trying to be adopted one last time before being dropped out of the system. When they were dropped out of the system, they had no concept of love or parenting. Many of them had very deep psychological and physical issues. Many of them turn to drugs and alcohol as a way to try to cope.
IMO, that life is way more depraved than no life at all.
The handicap issue is hard for me to deal with. A lot of the children I worked with were abandoned because of disabilities. Some people abort because they find out their child will be disabled. As a person with several disabilities, this makes me really uncomfortable on a gut level.
That said, I still have to stand for a woman's choice. And I'd rather a woman choose to abort a disabled baby than to put that baby in an institution, to live a depraved life, devoid of any sort of love.
Pro-lifers need to truly consider what the alternative to abortion is. "Life" doesn't always mean being adopted right away and whisked into a loving family. I am one of the lucky ones--adopted early, in a very loving family--and I still struggle internally from my experiences. Imagine what it's like for those orphans who never get to feel loved.
If you want to treat a human with dignity and respect, putting them in an orphanage is not the thing to do.
The vast majority of American babies who are given up for adoption do not spend a day in an orphanage.
My brother was three when he was adopted - from an orphanage in Korea. He was abandoned there by his mother who couldn't care for seven kids after her husband died. He lived in the streets, stealing for food, till he was nearly three. Not exactly a loving environment - and he remembers his mother dropping him off at the orphanage.
Even so, he's happy to be alive and loved today.
My grandson was also adopted - though he never spent a minute in an orphanage (he was adopted at age 10 months and spent the first ten months of his life in foster care). My family supports adoption services financially as well, on an ongoing basis. So I'm pretty familiar with the idea and institutions.
Orphanages serve a need - but like I said, most US born infants given up for adoption don't go to orphanages - they either go to a family who is already waiting, or to foster care.
I already think that a woman should have a choice to abort. I've been raped several times and I am pretty sure if I became pregnant as a result (fortunately I hadn't started menstruating at the time) I would want the choice to abort. I've also, through personal experience, learned that foster care/orphanages are far from pleasant on the whole. An unwanted life isn't always better than death. My mother considered aborting me but I ended up being born extremely premature. I do have a great life now but I've worked with many more children who have an awful life, because they were abandoned at birth. As a result, I'm firmly pro-choice.
Anyway, my point is that it's hypocritical to claim "pro-life" and then be pro-choice in this instance. That's not a true "pro-life" stance cause that's putting the woman's choice before the baby's life. Pro-choice people already do that but at least they're honest about their stance.
You completely ignored everything I wrote and went straight back to canned talking points.
How predictable is that?
You state that a woman should have the right to abort (apparently for any reason), but you provide no reason for this belief.
You say that you've been raped several times and that you would want the option to abort, but you have nothing to say about the more than 99% of abortions that have nothing to do with rape.
Then you give us the sorriest of all the T-4 rationalizations, that life in an orphanage isn't worth living (as though newborns aren't eagerly snatched up by great couples who wait years to adopts).
No, I'm saying women and men are human...normal humans have sex, they have always had sex wisely and unwisely, for procreation and for fun.......and people jealous of that fact can't change that fact.
Don't like how that works??? Complain to the manufacturer....it made a flawed product...except for the Anti-Choicers who have never made a mistake....right?
You mean it is about being punished for having sex. Most methods of BC have a failure rate.
If I do not want to carry a pregnancy.....how are you going to force me to do so?
How are you going to force me to avail myself of prenatal care? Who is going to pay for it?
How are you going to force me not to drink, smoke, do drugs or eat an unhealthy diet?
Who is going to take care of me and pay my bills if I have complications?
Are you going support me if I lose my job because I can no longer do my work?
If I do not want to be burdened carrying a pregnancy, that is MY business. I am responsible for taking care of me....and if a pregnancy is going to interfere with me doing so, it is no ones business but mine if I decide to terminate it.
You cannot force me into what amounts to 9 months of slavery against my will. Legal of not, you cannot stop me from aborting. Too bad for you.
I didn't vote in the poll, because I am pro life AND consistent.
Not only am I pro life for the unborn, I am also against the death penalty in nearly all cases (just as I am against abortion in nearly all cases).
Yes, I am that consistent.
Would I PERSONALLY choose abortion if I was raped? No. If I couldn't deal with the trauma of actually raising the child, I would put the baby up for adoption. But the baby doesn't deserve to be wiped out of existence just because it was conceived in a manner I didn't choose. It still, in my opinion, deserves to be treated with the dignity that all human life deserves.
That being said, I am not so hard line as to impose that on other women or families. I am personally opposed to abortion for convenience, including abortion due to rape or incest (though incest is a bit different because I am not 100 percent opposed
to abortions when a child is severely handicapped, to the point of the handicap being incompatible with life after birth - and incest can cause severe handicaps). """"
No. That's not true but it's interesting that you think a ten-year-old raped by Daddy should be forced to have his baby...the ultimate subjugation of women. THAT is treating a child with dignity?????
"""But what I want more than ANYTHING is to see the number of abortions drop considerably. So from a voting perspective (rather than simply a personal perspective) I would support legislation that limited abortions to pregnancies from rape or incest, or which truly endangered the mothers' life.""""
How are those aboprtions different from any other abortion? They aren't ....
And by that I don't mean the normal dangers of a normal pregnancy.
And by the way, I was violently raped by a casual acquaintance (not a date rape just for the record) when I was in college - it was so severe that I was bruised and cut and even went to the police station and met with an officer as I considered pressing charges (that's a whole other story) - so I know the serious emotional and physical issues of rape.
Of course you were raped and experienced every other topic in CD however, YOUR emotional and physical issues are NOT every woman's ! YOU are not the standard, the benchmark, all women are different and YOU don't rule on how everyone should feel.
Making abortion illegal does NOT stop abortion...... making abortion illegal just punishes women......your obvious goal.
The vast majority of American babies who are given up for adoption do not spend a day in an orphanage.
My brother was three when he was adopted - from an orphanage in Korea. He was abandoned there by his mother who couldn't care for seven kids after her husband died. He lived in the streets, stealing for food, till he was nearly three. Not exactly a loving environment - and he remembers his mother dropping him off at the orphanage.
Even so, he's happy to be alive and loved today.
My grandson was also adopted - though he never spent a minute in an orphanage (he was adopted at age 10 months and spent the first ten months of his life in foster care). My family supports adoption services financially as well, on an ongoing basis. So I'm pretty familiar with the idea and institutions.
Orphanages serve a need - but like I said, most US born infants given up for adoption don't go to orphanages - they either go to a family who is already waiting, or to foster care.
I didn't realize we were only talking about abortion within America.
That said, there there are still plenty of foster children in the U.S.
Yes there are people who are adopted, or who find families, but there are many more who don't.
You completely ignored everything I wrote and went straight back to canned talking points.
How predictable is that?
You state that a woman should have the right to abort (apparently for any reason), but you provide no reason for this belief.
You say that you've been raped several times and that you would want the option to abort, but you have nothing to say about the more than 99% of abortions that have nothing to do with rape.
Then you give us the sorriest of all the T-4 rationalizations, that life in an orphanage isn't worth living (as though newborns aren't eagerly snatched up by great couples who wait years to adopts).
You really are completely full of ****.
Regarding the abortions that don't have to do with rape, I believe in pro-choice for a simple reason: you and I don't get to make decision for other people. You and I don't know about their life and circumstances. Therefore you and I should not have a say in what a woman does with her child. That shouldn't be up to a vote. She might not have been raped, but we don't know what her life circumstances are. Maybe she is too poor to raise a child? Maybe she doesn't feel emotionally ready? Maybe her parents will kick her out and she'll be left to the streets? Children can tell if their parents don't want them. Is it really better for a child to be unwanted, considered a nuisance, while growing up? I don't think abortion should be used casually, to completely replace all other forms of birth control. I believe in using condoms, the morning after pill, and other forms of birth control that don't allow a pregnancy to even begin. That said, sometimes BC fails and abortion should be a last-resort option. And there are tons of scenarios you and I might not know of. For example, what if a mother has a baby and even plans on it, but then a few weeks later, her own family member gets into a serious car accident and the prospective mother now has to worry about caring for this relative, and feels like she won't have time for the new baby? There are so many different life circumstances, not necessarily just rape, that I think would justify aborting a fetus that isn't fully developed into a child. I am not so arrogant as to assume I know what's best for every woman. I can't make the judgment call for whether a baby will be entering a good life or not, and so I believe in leaving that judgment call up to the mother, who has a lot more information to make a more accurate judgment call.
There are tons of children who aren't adopted. There are parents waiting to adopt children--who meet specific criteria. The children who don't meet those criteria get left behind. White children get adopted more frequently than children of color. Able-bodied children get adopted over disabled children. Babies 6 months and younger get adopted over older children. There are several unwanted demographics, who often end up being stuck in the foster care system, or internationally, in orphanages and institutions. If you want to deny this or diminish it as some T-4 rationalization, go ahead, but there is plenty of information out there that will point you to what I said, clear as day. It's a painful reality that people don't want to recognize, but that doesn't make it any less of a reality.
Funny how the whole world has a habit of imposing their own choices & values only to blame others for outcomes.
Sometimes you're precious when you're the correct color and the right gender. Or of the correct sexual orientation. Or without disability on a scale 1 to 10. And if you're already educated and of a superior economic class with lots of support/ encouragement from family and friends. And if you're already married so fake religious won't stone you to death and your government + employer won't persecute you with policies. Then life might be precious. But if you're a single mom, you're paying extra taxes so daddy's dividend Anne Romney can ride horses. Ain't that a kick in the head?
Life is always precious if you're wealthy enough to be healthy, because if that infant were sick and you can't pay, life is less precious. RIP my brother John John who primarily died of poverty, secondary cause renal failure, at age 6 mos- not in a 3rd world country. In a 3rd world existence right here in America.
...parental diligence is more common than you might think among women in the sex industry, who often find themselves playing the role of the responsible parent, earning a living to provide for their children, while the fathers of those children are absent.
There are several reasons good Mothers lose custody and the top of the list is the unfortunate reality of financial status. Fathers that have the money to take a custody battle into the family court system for several years, usually (approximately 80% of the time), wins full custody and the Mother, not only loses her 50% physical custody, but loses her parental rights, as well. This is a devastating and difficult situation for the mother as well as the children.
If you or a mother you know is caught up in this system, get out as fast as you can so the damage is minimal. If you try to fight him and you think telling the truth about his abusive and terrorizing behavior means anything in family court, except that you are exaggerating, over-protective and trying to keep your children from their father, you will lose your children.
***Note, family law, no matter how abusive or poor paternity is, reliably preserves HIS parental rights. Which is how children get murdered during visitations. Those are not so precious children as per family law.
And I'd be excommunicated (less precious) if I ever had my tubes tied because an elaborate technocratic document concocted by asexual men- the Catechism- decided I should be punished for taking control of my God given body (averting any risk of abortion is also a sin, even if medically recommended). Introduction to Roman Catholicism: Catholic Moral Theology
Quote:
Equally to be condemned, as the magisterium of the Church has affirmed on many occasions, is direct sterilization, whether of the man or of the woman, whether permanent or temporary... the avoidance of contraception is seen as an act allowing God to decide whether or not conception will take place."
I should allow God to decide whether or not I'll manifest ovarian cancer by retaining my ovaries no matter family history, genetic markers, or observable symptoms present tense. God will also decide if I live or not if I stand on a train track and the train will stop or not. I think the people concocting that logic ought to do experiments on their precious selves first before using all of humanity as less precious lab rats.
But IF God decided I'd be precious pregnant, why would all these people claiming to be Christian in a Christian nation be throwing not precious rocks at what God decided??? Maybe it's not about God at all? Maybe the long ugly history of institutionalized orphanage competitions between religions proved it's own hideous motives at the turn of the last century. After a catastrophic house fire my grandmother and her 5 siblings were put in an orphanage and my great grandparents couldn't afford to bail her out of what were loveless austere prison like conditions. Every child in there was susceptible to all kinds of malevolence from every direction. Abused authority, peers, and outsiders shopping for slave labor, sex toys, and lord only knows what else.
Fertility and motherhood itself is criminalized and/or persecuted left, right, sideways, and every way in between. All courtesy of "Pro (everyone else's) life", AKA "Right To (abuse YOUR) Life". Legislative/ judicial systems hold the fertility of women hostage just because they CAN authorize themselves the right to be abusive. Evil is as evil does. Yes, I really just said that about the false theologians in my Church and every sitting false conservative legislator and judge in the United States.
There is no end to these crazy schemes they've concocted to torture the wombs of women and they refuse to learn for centuries. The more the law (religious or otherwise) has ever tried to control women, the more out of control men have been given license with themselves, and the more morally repulsed live children are with their fathers, their Churches, and their government. The more they try to brainwash kids into hating their mother, the more those children fail to thrive/ self destruct. They refuse the dignity of womankind, refuse to honor their own mothers, and blame radical feminists for what is their own willful ignorance.
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Would that make you self-righteous Puritans happy??
Maybe it's not about God at all? 
