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And turn it into what? The problem is no matter what we do, it will cost state money. Demolishing all the homes, including removing underground infrastructure and removing pavement to turn it into farmland would be a costly project and I'm not sure it's not too contaminated to do that after having been built upon. The problem is we have to do something with it. To do nothing will create this large lawless space where vacant homes abound and gangs and crime will spread into the surrounding suburbs which will create a flight from them to gain greater distance from what's left of Detroit.
The question really is what is more expensive? Tearing down Detroit and cleaning up the area or rebuilding Detroit. As big as Detroit is you're talking one massive clean up. Some of the outer ring neighborhoods could be absorbed by the surrounding suburbs but you'd still have I don't know how many square miles to remove pavement, homes, basements, sewers, power lines, gas lines, water pipes.... There is no cheap or easy answer here.
Personally, I think we have more hope of fixing Detroit than demolishing it. There is no burning it and just leaving the remains to rot. That's not a viable solution. If we're dismantling Detroit, we have to clean it up. Make it one big park or return it to farmland if the land isn't too contaminated to grow food on.
It's really a clear view of the corrupted nature of right-wing perspective, though: Avaricious to the extreme, with a callous disregard for human decency that is shocking.
Those that are saying to let Detroit die include folks who, as a matter of course, care nothing about anyone other than themselves, and so the fact that nothing would get better there and even that things will continue to get worse affects them not at all. The right-wing perspective on this is if they cannot profit from it, if it doesn't feed their own personal comfort and luxury, then what happens to the human beings there doesn't matter in their perspective.
Which is what a lot of right-wingers claim that they want.
Some of them refuse to admit even that much. Some of the more honest right-wingers will simply explain how it would be less expensive to pen in the area and force the negative impact to be concentrated within that one area than to remedy the area so there is decreasing negative impact. The immorality of such an approach wouldn't bear on their preference.
The right wing perspective??? You do know that I'm right wing, right? I've never heard of this "right wing perspective" you talk of WRT Detroit. Everyone I know who is right wing agrees with me. It's the left that has an issue with the state taking over.
This is not a matter of something we'll profit from or not profit from. This will cost us either way. This is a matter of taking care of a cancer. You either cure it or cut it off but either one is painful and expensive. The problem, as I see it as a person who leans right is that the left wing is upset that the state has come in and taken control. They see that as unfair. It is necessary. Detroit lost the right to be autonomous through gross mismanagement. Now someone has to come in and clean up the mess one way or the other.
Personally, I think it will be cheaper to revitalize Detroit than to bulldoze it but that is a major undertaking. I think parts need to be bulldozed and turned into parkland. I think this is going to cost this state a fortune but any choice here is an expensive choice. Rebuild and you're talking major investment with the state supporting Detroit for decades, bulldoze it and you have the cost of clean up and the state providing emergency services, do nothing and the rot spreads one by one through the suburbs.
I think bulldozing Detroit is will be the more costly option because Detroit is so large and so blighted and then you're left with the problem of what to do with the land and how to police it and that's AFTER you get the people out. Maybe there is a third option. Cure and surgery. Lob off sections of Detroit by combining them with the surrounding suburban cities or letting them form cities in their own right. Revitalize the downtown area and bulldoze and clean up blighted areas and turn them into parks. Turn the new center area into New Center City....
Whatever we do will be very expensive for the state. What we can't do is nothing. That definitely won't work. The state IS getting the bill here. The question is what do we want to spend the money on. What do we want to bulldoze? What do we want to revitalize? What do we want to just lob off of Detroit. Detroit cannot stay the size it is and it will be a long time before Detroit is operating as in independent city.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-22-2013 at 03:41 AM..
The poll question wasn't relevant twenty years ago...
I just recently visited and Detroit has had applied to it some pretty make-up, but it is still a corpse. I have never seen a place considered a city with so many vacant lots... it's as if someone tossed some skyscrapers down by the river and put a grid of streets down but only a couple of houses on each block, blocks that look like parks that run an entire neighborhood. It could have been farmland in some places with an odd blue-collar fifties-era house put up as a homestead. Down several of the main avenues, what once were commercial fronts facing the street looked like greenbelts and if it weren't for memory I would never had known that there used to be stores here rather than what appeared to be a long strip of parkland broken up by smaller side streets, where the houses used to be. Such an odd place, still called a city, in America. The suburbs bustled as well they would, having picked up some of the slack that an urban core provides elsewhere.
Then there are the casinos... made me think of a popular video game I consulted on some time ago that dealt with a post-apocalyptic Las Vegas. So theme park it is.
The right wing perspective??? You do know that I'm right wing, right?
I really don't care what any specific poster is or claims to be. I focus on the topic, on the issues, not on individual personalities, except when someone makes the discussion about themselves, explicitly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
I've never heard of this "right wing perspective" you talk of WRT Detroit.
Yes you have: You're arguing against it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
This is not a matter of something we'll profit from or not profit from.
The idea that profit is a right-wing invention or a right-wing province is erroneous. The right-wing is characterized by the elevation of the comfort and luxury of some over the basic needs of others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
This will cost us either way. This is a matter of taking care of a cancer. You either cure it or cut it off but either one is painful and expensive.
With all your talk of rational weighing of options; admitting that something needs to be done by society; and refraining from marginalizing the 700,000 people who live there now - you sound like a conservative, not a right-winger. I'm sorry if you find that insulting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
The problem, as I see it as a person who leans right is that the left wing is upset that the state has come in and taken control. They see that as unfair. It is necessary. Detroit lost the right to be autonomous through gross mismanagement. Now someone has to come in and clean up the mess one way or the other.
As a person who leans left, I see nothing unfair about the state taking responsibility and action to remedy the difficult situation.
I really don't care what any specific poster is or claims to be. I focus on the topic, on the issues, not on individual personalities, except when someone makes the discussion about themselves, explicitly.
Yes you have: You're arguing against it.
The idea that profit is a right-wing invention or a right-wing province is erroneous. The right-wing is characterized by the elevation of the comfort and luxury of some over the basic needs of others.
With all your talk of rational weighing of options; admitting that something needs to be done by society; and refraining from marginalizing the 700,000 people who live there now - you sound like a conservative, not a right-winger. I'm sorry if you find that insulting.
As a person who leans left, I see nothing unfair about the state taking responsibility and action to remedy the difficult situation.
what I find so comical is the definition of "needs" by the left. basic needs, like cable, internet, a car, etc. I should be forced to drive a civic instead of an accord, just so my neighbor can also have a civic. liberalism is like a kindergarten sharing lesson.
I don't have a comfortable life, or a nice job(don't have a job actually) and no financial security...So you are wrong 3 times in less then one sentence...great opening...
I am not throwing them under the bus, they leaped in front of it...I did not nothing, and was no where near this accident.
People have an "Constant obsession" with money that they worked hard for? wow, that..sounds perfectly logical..
"they never had the opportunities that you had and why their lives ended up the way they did.its not easy being poor and its real tough to break out of the lifestyle once in it ,Many in the "comfort class" think its as easy as saying these people should just go out and get good paying jobs instead of sitting around expecting everything for free,The next time you see a poor person buy him a coffee and sit down and talk for a while, you may come to a different understanding of their situation."
Not buying it, I have had no real opportunities but I have my nose the grind stone, I amgoing to college, and not voting for failed systems, corrupted candidates(I know that an oxymoron if you have ever heard one) and failing ideology.
I understand why they voted for what ever Democrat was elected, he or she promised them something free, and taxed the hell out of someone in order to pay for, only problem is, the gooses laying the golden eggs, flown the coop. and now the supply of golden eggs is almost gone..of course with out understand basic economic how where the voters of Detroit supposed to understand this? I mean after all failed government run schools were, well worse then noting...its a series of failures, on the part of many, and its a damn shame...
That being said failure or stupidly on your part does not does not constitute an emergency on my part. we have given you countless idea and way of improving them, chatter schools, school vouchers, trade zones, flat taxes...all great opinions, but they don't support the party line.....so they are cast out in the cold..
that being said Everyone said it was going to happen, no one listen to us, everyone mock us, and people who see this coming have long since gone galt...
We are the people who would have told the colonists of hadley's hope on LV 426 To not go any where near the derelict ship, told them why, and what would happen, and they still made the choice to go to the derelict ship..and now after their are chest busters popping out of people, and things are going to hell..in this late hour your still blame us for you choosing to go inside the derelict ship..and blame us for leave the planet to succumbing to the coming infestation, and subsequent nuclear extermination..
Look at Detroit, and the movie Aliens.. the stories and plot are in a mirror darkly..and Detroit does have a hadley`s hope kind of feel to it, and areas do have a nuclear-esque desolation to them..
You missed the first sentence of my post where i said it wasnt directed to you personally but more to the attitude you and many have expressed that any demographic in the USA that falls on hard times should not be helped through tax dollars by fellow Americans.
We can agree to disagree but in my opinion when you have a city in your country thats basically dying and the people have fallen on hard times because of economic conditions that arent their fault i have no problem with my taxes being spent to come up with solutions to the problem rather than just ignoring it and hoping it will just go away.
PS. Out of curiosity if you dont have a job and no financial security then who's paying your bills? or who will pay the bills when you run out of what little money you do have.? And if in this time you have a medical emergency,what then?
what I find so comical is the definition of "needs" by the left. basic needs, like cable, internet, a car, etc.
When you make up your own nonsense to argue against, you just make even clearer that you have no cogent rebuttal to what I actually wrote. If you want to just talk to yourself, invest in a video camera. Or just play Solitaire - that's about as worthwhile as your continual tactic of nonsensically making up things you claim someone else said just so you can have something to post in response to what that person actually said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionsgators
I should be forced to drive a civic instead of an accord, just so my neighbor can also have a civic.
Rather, you should be forced to drive an "Accord 2.4-liter EX with CVT", CVT instead of an "Accord 2.4-liter EX-L with CVT", so that someone else can take a bus to work instead of being without a job because the company that pays you well-enough to afford an Accord places low-wage jobs near where the managers live instead of in the communities where the poor people live.
But you just go ahead ignoring what other people are actually saying and responding instead to the voices you make up in your own mind. Don't let the parameters of honorable discourse limit your creativity in the disreputable defense of the disreputable perspectives you prefer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionsgators
liberalism is like a kindergarten sharing lesson.
It is evident that many right-wingers failed the lessons of kindergarten.
When you make up your own nonsense to argue against, you just make even clearer that you have no cogent rebuttal to what I actually wrote. If you want to just talk to yourself, invest in a video camera. Or just play Solitaire - that's about as worthwhile as your continual tactic of nonsensically making up things you claim someone else said just so you can have something to post in response to what that person actually said.
Rather, you should be forced to drive an "Accord 2.4-liter EX with CVT", CVT instead of an "Accord 2.4-liter EX-L with CVT", so that someone else can take a bus to work instead of being without a job because the company that pays you well-enough to afford an Accord places low-wage jobs near where the managers live instead of in the communities where the poor people live.
But you just go ahead ignoring what other people are actually saying and responding instead to the voices you make up in your own mind. Don't let the parameters of honorable discourse limit your creativity in the disreputable defense of the disreputable perspectives you prefer.
It is evident that many right-wingers failed the lessons of kindergarten.
oh boohoohoo, you're so quaint. the job doesn't pay me well enough that I can afford an accord, I can afford a nice car because I am not a liberal mental midget when it comes to managing money. why would managers want to invest in the crime cesspools of poor neighborhoods? oh, I learned the lessons of kindergarten quite well. I learned the lessons of reality shortly thereafter.
I really don't care what any specific poster is or claims to be. I focus on the topic, on the issues, not on individual personalities, except when someone makes the discussion about themselves, explicitly.
Yes you have: You're arguing against it.
The idea that profit is a right-wing invention or a right-wing province is erroneous. The right-wing is characterized by the elevation of the comfort and luxury of some over the basic needs of others.
With all your talk of rational weighing of options; admitting that something needs to be done by society; and refraining from marginalizing the 700,000 people who live there now - you sound like a conservative, not a right-winger. I'm sorry if you find that insulting.
As a person who leans left, I see nothing unfair about the state taking responsibility and action to remedy the difficult situation.
LOL. I'm arguing for saving Detroit. If that's the right wing perspective, then so beit.
What's the left wing perspective here? Let Detroit die?
My right wing perspective is that there is too much to lose by letting Detroit die and much to gain if we can save Detroit. I do not, however, think we will save it as the same size it is today. I think step one is to merge border neighborhoods with the surrounding suburbs so that the city doesn't have to provide police, fire, emergency services and education for them. Remove some of the burden. Of course this removes some of the revenue too so the state will have to shore up the budget.
oh boohoohoo, you're so quaint. the job doesn't pay me well enough that I can afford an accord, I can afford a nice car because I am not a liberal mental midget when it comes to managing money. why would managers want to invest in the crime cesspools of poor neighborhoods? oh, I learned the lessons of kindergarten quite well. I learned the lessons of reality shortly thereafter.
The problem is this is not a liberal/conservative issue. If Detroit is simply left to die, the state will have to come in and provide police, fire, emergency services and education for the people left in the area and this will be no easy task. There's no way around that. The state IS getting this bill. The question is what is the most cost efficient way to handle this problem.
I agree that managers will not invest in crime ridden neighborhoods which is why one goal has to be taking care of crime. This is a huge problem and will take decades to solve if it can be solved. If it can't be, then we bulldoze Detroit and turn the portions that are not contaminated into farmland. The portions that are contaminated will need to be cleaned up or cordoned off and allowed to be reclaimed by nature in the hope that 100 years from not they're not so contaminated anymore.
Michigan has a cancerous tumor and its name is Detroit. We need to cure it or cut it out or a combination of both. Both surgery and chemo are expensive. We're just stuck here and we need to accept that. I don't think we should give the liberals control of it again. They made this mess. I think Detroit needs to be under state control and stay under state control. They've lost the right to self manage through decades of mismanagement. Detroiters kept voting corrupt people into office as if they were some kind of role model.
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