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The argument of "well, pick your profession wisely before you invest in it" is so artificial is it falls flat on its face. One cannot pawn off somebody's hard work's inability to enrich them to a simpleton "well, your field is not prime for high income". Look at airline mechanics, auto workers, engineers (as a median, not the top outliers). All careers that once held comfortable incomes now desimated by concessions and de-valuation due to global labor shifting. Yesterday's airline mechanics are today's nurses, and believe me nurses will see a correction in salary in a couple of decades. Do you really expect people to make such broad career changes within 30 years? You can't say with a straight face that upon our current hindsight these people would have made different vocational choices 20 years ago. Furthermore, to suggest that all people need to do is shrug one's shoulders after 20 years and "go back to school" to work in the current marketable fields is unrealistic and callous. Vocational choices are bound by non-economical factors too, some people might take a bullet to the head before selling their soul to pay the mortgage. They might not fare well in this society, but I am sympathetic to that plight (in a sense a lot of us are in that boat).
Just admit that the "hard work" mantra in this country is nothing more than a tired middle class work ethic guilt trip that has been invalidated by globalization. It is even more so for that reason that networking plays a bigger role today in your ability to put food on the table, and that my friends has nothing to do with the puritanical value of "working hard". Like the movie Office Space highlights "it's makes you work just hard enough not to get fired". That is the new reality. I'd re-evaluate who's on the high horse on that argument, I submit it's those who continue to rah-rah behind the 1950's middle class work ethic dead mantra while dismissing the "who you know" working reality, coincidentally many of the same who are benefited from it.
Heck, companies in Alabama are actually importing workers simply because we've run out of locals. Last unemployment figure I saw for Birmingham was around 2.8%, which means if you aren't working, you just aren't trying.
Or maybe you don't have a car to get to where the jobs are? Living in Birmingham you know how bad the public transportation is, as well as how desolate and nearly business-free large swaths of the city are. I'm sure there are some people who aren't trying but that doesn't mean all of them aren't.
Last edited by fishmonger; 02-01-2008 at 01:35 PM..
The argument of "well, pick your profession wisely before you invest in it" is so artificial is it falls flat on its face. One cannot pawn off somebody's hard work's inability to enrich them to a simpleton "well, your field is not prime for high income". Look at airline mechanics, auto workers, engineers (as a median, not the top outliers). All careers that once held comfortable incomes now desimated by concessions and de-valuation due to global labor shifting. Yesterday's airline mechanics are today's nurses, and believe me nurses will see a correction in salary in a couple of decades. Do you really expect people to make such broad career changes within 30 years? You can't say with a straight face that upon our current hindsight these people would have made different vocational choices 20 years ago. Furthermore, to suggest that all people need to do is shrug one's shoulders after 20 years and "go back to school" to work in the current marketable fields is unrealistic and callous. Vocational choices are bound by non-economical factors too, some people might take a bullet to the head before selling their soul to pay the mortgage. They might not fare well in this society, but I am sympathetic to that plight (in a sense a lot of us are in that boat).
Just admit that the "hard work" mantra in this country is nothing more than a tired middle class work ethic guilt trip that has been invalidated by globalization. It is even more so for that reason that networking plays a bigger role today in your ability to put food on the table, and that my friends has nothing to do with the puritanical value of "working hard". Like the movie Office Space highlights "it's makes you work just hard enough not to get fired". That is the new reality. I'd re-evaluate who's on the high horse on that argument, I submit it's those who continue to rah-rah behind the 1950's middle class work ethic dead mantra while dismissing the "who you know" working reality, coincidentally many of the same who are benefited from it.
Good post. I love the interpretation thats fabricated that accountants and businessman and stockbrokers are the only ones with a skill set and thus the only ones able to make a decent living.
In the meantime skilled workers get paid less and less because of number crunchers can deem them unworthy.
While every aspect of the cost of living increases and most wages and salaries remain stagnant or grow a little those that either look good, are top athletes or manipulate a lot of money through stocks and property see them skyrocket. Most people out in the working world want to be able to afford a small place of their own, not a giant mansion. Those at the top with control over most of the assets use supply and demand to price things out of reach of workers. That is what is happening in Tucson.
I have noticed that many of the threads that are on this board, end up being rants against the less advantaged. For example, mention Hempstead or Wyandanch and you quickly have people going on and on about how horrible they are and about how all the people are welfare recipients. You get things like "If they can't afford to live here, they should move", "They should get themselves educated and get better jobs", etc.
Anyway, I thought it would be interesting to have a thread devoted to this topic. Why are poor people poor? Are they lazy, stupid? Are they disadvantaged through no fault of their own? Is there a way out (not just for the exceptional few, but for all)? Do we have an obligation as a society to help? What are your thoughts?
Because JESUS said that you will have the Poor among you always......Not everybody can just go out and through hard work and sacrifice obtain a B.A. Masters or P.H.D. Degress and get themselves a better paying job thus pulling themselves out of their's predicament by their's Boot Straps...Some flithy rich people are Lazy and some hard working industrialist people are what you would call POOR....
Because JESUS said that you will have the Poor among you always......Not everybody can just go out and through hard work and sacrifice obtain a B.A. Masters or P.H.D. Degress and get themselves a better paying job thus pulling themselves out of their's predicament by their's Boot Straps...Some flithy rich people are Lazy and some hard working industrialist people are what you would call POOR....
So thats the excuse to do nothing. Who needs compassion, Jesus says its ok people will be poor anyways right?
Sorry, FM. I've worked with public housing, inner city schools, government agencies and charities, some for as long as 12 years. I've had hours and hours of discussions with case workers, administrators, you name it. And what they all say, when they're not speaking to a reporter, is that a huge part of the problem is people not taking responsibility for their own lives.
Even if two people in a household a full time job only earning minimum wage, the annual household income is $31,875. However, even that is highly unlikely since only 2.5% of the population earns minimum wage. And of that 2.5%, 60% are in the service industry who earn under-the-table money in the form of tips (I waited tables, so I know how much money I earned).
That being said, dealing with lots of employers in the market, I know that even fast food places are paying as much as $10.50 an hour now (Namely the Burger King on 280, where I saw the sign). The Shop-A-Snack in Inverness is paying $25,000 a year for counter help, with benefits (Again, where I saw the sign). So a two-income family in the market, even unskilled, could theoretically be earning $40-$50K.
Mind you, that is a TWO INCOME family. That assumes that you don't have deadbeat fathers or single parenting, which serves to underscore my original premise. That's why, in my opinion, there's an absolute link between poverty and unstable families.
Where did you get your mimimum wage information from which State or States Are You Using...California Mimimum wage for 2007 was $7.50 Per Hour A 2 Person Household $30,000 A Year...Or for 2008 $8.00 Per Hour A 2 Person Household $32,000 A Year But after you factor out Rent Or Mortage Payments And Insurances And Car Upkeep And Maintences And Of Course Gasoline , Car Insurances And The Car Note You Only Have About $12,000 Or LESS To Use On The Other Necessities of life Like Food And Clothing Children And Babysitters....Now I Totally Agree With You On The Unstable Families being ONE OF THE FACTORS That Holds The Low Income In Poverty But Don't Get On A High Horse And Make It Look Like The POOR Are Just Knuckle Draggers That Can't Seem To Get It All Together Because Of POOR Decision Making Skills. During my life time i'll seen the lazy Rich , and many of them don't work hard they just work smart and i have seen the industrialist hard working POOR Fail and fall Time and time again , and really the only thing that you can tell them is that the only Losers IN LIFE are those that lose and fail but won't get right back on up and try it again and again.One more thing that you forgot to factor in is the important fact that a lot of Employers are going to Independent Constractors Using That Legal Loop Hole Instead Of Hiring Employee's And Paying Them The I.C. Below The Mimimum Wage Standard.
So thats the excuse to do nothing. Who needs compassion, Jesus says its ok people will be poor anyways right?
No that's not what I'm saying at all , do nothing and nothing will ever get changed or get done ...Now this is what I'm really saying we should still have the (WPA program) that America Had During The Great Depression And Put Every POOR Person To Work That Really Wanted To Work And Do Away With The Weafare System That We Have Today , Train The Poor In Building Their's Very Own 3 or 4 Room Shot Gun Houses (Themselves) I'm TALKING About The HOMELESS And Those That Aren't HOMELESS , The Poor Growing Their's Own Gardens , The POOR Having College Or Vocational Program Where They Could Do Community Service To The NATION or The STATE or The Variage CITIES To Repay Their's Loans. But Of Course A Lot Of People Aren't Going To Agree With Me On This ,,,So goes the Bibical Verse The POOR You Will Have With You Always....
I think Odinloki1 would like to move to Bangladesh where everybody is poor, that way he can't blame the wealthy for their condition... he likes it when the poor robs the wealthy but when someone steals from the poor... look out... life is so unfair... its only fair when you rob someone and they can't rob you back...
It would seem that some expect that a auto mechanic should get paid as much as a brain surgeon -
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