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I didn't read the whole thread but here is my opinion (btw Im a straight male with a gay best friend)
If a business doesn't want to serve gays, or Italians, or blacks, or paraplegics, or women or Jews, or Christians, or Muslims I think they are entitled to that, that's what freedom is.
I would not patronize those businesses because the best way to support (or not support) something is with your money. however I believe any business should be entitled to refuse business to anyone for any reason, then another business can fill in the gap to serve that segment of the market.
It is also not a difficult concept to grasp that the right to freely exercise your religious beliefs does not come with a caveat that "you must be consistent."
And she was not "denying services under a religious 'guise'" She was denying services based on her right not to violate her religious beliefs that are universally held by all major world religions. She didn't make up something or interpret something to get out of making money, she's in business to make money, but money is not more valuable to her than her religious freedom and religious beliefs.
If it ever came to her attention in which she would be accepting business from a man or woman remarrying, or a man or woman who is shacking up with their lover, an unmarried person who is not a virgin, etc., then she is being a total and complete hypocrite. End of discussion.
The bold part is just absolutely hilarious.
"Hey! As a business owner, I have every right to exercise my religious beliefs when dealing with potential customers, but I shouldn't have to be fair and consistent!" You're complaining that the law shouldn't force business owners to be "consistent" with other business owners in who they accept business from, but totally okay with the concept of a business owner not being "consistent" when exercising their religious beliefs with said customers.
That would be you. Supporting the discrimination of a person's faith over special privileges for homosexuals.
No persons faith trumps the law. You are supporting allowing the discrimination of homosexuals on no basis other than religion, this is against the law.
That explains sooo much. Having attended law school and having worked with lawyers the entirety of my career, I have learned that being a lawyer doesn't make you a legal scholar.
Attended? Graduated from? Admitted to the bar?
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The best approach would be for elected officials to be held to their oath of office, to uphold the Constitution and stop legislating special privileges to certain classes based on the cash return they expect to their campaign coffers.
A gay couple attempting to buy a wedding cake is not asking for special privileges. They are asking for the same treatment as a heterosexual couple who want a wedding cake or a black couple who want a wedding cake.
You are free to be a bigot. You may choose not to associate with anyone whose life style conflicts with your own. But when you get a business license you agree to follow the laws of the jurisdiction in which that business operates.
The laws concerning discrimination have been upheld by our highest court. Mark and others have given you citations. What you believe is not what the law says. Claiming "that's against my religion" does not absolve someone from following anti-discrimination laws.
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So now you want to talk marriage equality for polygamists?
No. I pointed out that people buying flowers for weddings are hopefully unmarried. You said, "Because unmarried people rarely need flower arrangements for a wedding ceremony???"
Maybe you meant something different from what you wrote? Clarity in communication is very useful.
Picking and choosing is exactly what occurs. The bible is a cherry picking festival of contradictions. But of course, you could always say "OUT OF CONTEXT!" or talk about all of the laws that weren't meant to be taken seriously. In the end, you are still cherry picking.
Anything distasteful, abhorrent, homicidal, genocidal, disgusting etc etc will be overlooked and have some convenient explanation as to why it's there.
But hey if it's all about hating on gays, it's good in your book!
I don't overlook or cherry pick anything. I only responded to your accusation that homosexuality and eating shellfish are the same thing in the eyes of God and I showed you that you were wrong and provided support to prove you are wrong in that assumption.
As to your allegation that, "Anything distasteful, abhorrent, homicidal, genocidal, disgusting etc etc will be overlooked and have some convenient explanation as to why it's there." Prove it?
And again YOU are the one talking about hating gays, not me. Do you hate murderers and Adulterers? The still commit sins, that doesn't mean that they should be hated. You HAVE to equate the calling out of sinful behavior is HATRED, so that you can maintain your victimhood. Guess what, people who believe homosexuality is a sin don't HATE homosexuals. Maybe you perceive that people "hate you" because you are a homosexual, but in reality, that feeling you get from others is because you're an jerk.
I didn't read the whole thread but here is my opinion (btw Im a straight male with a gay best friend)
If a business doesn't want to serve gays, or Italians, or blacks, or paraplegics, or women or Jews, or Christians, or Muslims I think they are entitled to that, that's what freedom is.
I would not patronize those businesses because the best way to support (or not support) something is with your money. however I believe any business should be entitled to refuse business to anyone for any reason, then another business can fill in the gap to serve that segment of the market.
This works provided the majority agree that those groups should be served and that they have the right to be served.
However, when the majority believe that [insert group here] are evil and that we shouldn't serve them, there lies an issue of the majority trampling on the minority.
The idea is to protect the minority from discrimination... otherwise things like "No Blacks Allowed" show up on peoples business doors!
Sure, there should be certain laws to protect minority groups against discrimination, but a business should be able to sell or not sell to anyone they choose. What happened to the signs that read "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone " ???
Companies, especially small companies, like this Florist, are run by people who take to that job certain beliefs and philosophies. Their right to those should not be compromised by some group that they are not in agreement with.
Rights in America are becoming a thing of the past.
Don
Be careful don, the voice of reason is a relatively foreign concept out here. I have yet to see anybody bring anybody else over to their way of thinking yet, but just in case, I'm going to make some popcorn and I'll be right back!
This works provided the majority agree that those groups should be served and that they have the right to be served.
However, when the majority believe that [insert group here] are evil and that we shouldn't serve them, there lies an issue of the majority trampling on the minority.
The idea is to protect the minority from discrimination... otherwise things like "No Blacks Allowed" show up on peoples business doors!
I don't overlook or cherry pick anything. I only responded to your accusation that homosexuality and eating shellfish are the same thing in the eyes of God and I showed you that you were wrong and provided support to prove you are wrong in that assumption.
As to your allegation that, "Anything distasteful, abhorrent, homicidal, genocidal, disgusting etc etc will be overlooked and have some convenient explanation as to why it's there." Prove it?
And again YOU are the one talking about hating gays, not me. Do you hate murderers and Adulterers? The still commit sins, that doesn't mean that they should be hated. You HAVE to equate the calling out of sinful behavior is HATRED, so that you can maintain your victimhood. Guess what, people who believe homosexuality is a sin don't HATE homosexuals. Maybe you perceive that people "hate you" because you are a homosexual, but in reality, that feeling you get from others is because you're an jerk.
A) I am not a homosexual
B) I am not victimized
You have shown nothing other than bringing exactly what I knew you would bring. Explanations for why "A" is okay and not "B" but you have provided no means of determining what laws should be ignored and what should be taken seriously. Course no one has, so I don't fault you.
The bible is full of laws that I'm sure you don't follow. I'll bet you follow those 10 commandments though! How about the other 603?
Using the bible as an excuse for anything is a laughable joke especially when speaking on state and government laws.
What you are asking for is special rights for people who have religious convictions. She's allowed to be her bigot self anywhere she wants, provided it doesn't infringe on the rights of others.
She runs a public business and is bound by the laws of the state regardless of her faith period
This works provided the majority agree that those groups should be served and that they have the right to be served.
However, when the majority believe that [insert group here] are evil and that we shouldn't serve them, there lies an issue of the majority trampling on the minority.
The idea is to protect the minority from discrimination... otherwise things like "No Blacks Allowed" show up on peoples business doors!
Well frankly the majority of people don't care about what people are or what they do, or at least they want money more. This isn't 1950 anymore.
I think that this business owner is totally entitled to deny service, I bet you that there is someone that will provide that service (because even if they hate gays they likely love money more)
I have predjudices too, like everyone in the world. I don't like people who come here and don't assimilate culturally, however if denying them business would make me lose a significant amount of money than the capitalist would kick in and I would bite my tongue and curse about them with my friends/girl friend.
This particular business person is an ideologue, good for him. He is entitled to that, more money for someone else.
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