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Well, Congress is pushing for a 200k+ annual cap. I'm sure we can find some innovators among those 200k+ each year....
In your experience, how does the average H-1B STEM worker compare to the average American STEM graduate?
Mitt Romney had proposed for a STEM green card program. Those who have a STEM graduate degree from the US and have found a job will be given a green card immediately.
If that was implemented, Americans would face a big challenge. However, that might also push away the H1B petitioners who did not study in the US.
No we won't. We do live in the US and pay US taxes, but there is no way we(I) would ever return to the US and do full time work in the US ever again. I've met 100's if not 100's of people who do the same thing across different fields and different collars. We are all self employed and pay the higher taxes associated with that and our net is still higher than if we worked for some company in the US. To give you a materialistic comparison, I've gone from making payment on a Ford Explorer to owning a Lexus GX without any payments. There has been no Head Hunter that I or my subs that have even come close with their packages compared to what we pay for outright.
H-1Bs did not cause the pay rates to drop. Outsourcing started it and the sales pitches of US universities topped it off by creating a glut of quantity but not a glut of quality.
And BTW your attacks on immigrants is completely uncalled for. I and all my subs are the children of legal immigrants and we've done pretty well especially when our parents came to the US with nearly nothing.
Tell mom and pop thanks for bringing down American wages. That's not an attack. That's just the truth. As you put it a glut of quantity. More and more every decade.
I'm late to the party, and I haven't read the previous thirty pages, but I do want to say this.
I did corporate IT for almost thirty years, both as a consultant and full time. I dealt with a lot of H1B. I have a friend who did the same thing and was constantly bitching about the H1B. I'll post here what I said to him, which is...
If there's a pool of skilled labor available to do work which American do but cheaper, either the you let that labor come here and do it, or the work will migrate to wherever that labor is. So would you rather have the jobs her, with the H1Bs doing some significant part of it, or have the work migrate to India, Eastern Europe, etc., and lose the economic benefit of having the work done here?
I'm late to the party, and I haven't read the previous thirty pages, but I do want to say this.
I did corporate IT for almost thirty years, both as a consultant and full time. I dealt with a lot of H1B. I have a friend who did the same thing and was constantly bitching about the H1B. I'll post here what I said to him, which is...
[b ]If there's a pool of skilled labor available to do work which American do but cheaper, either the you let that labor come here and do it, or the work will migrate to wherever that labor is. [/b]So would you rather have the jobs her, with the H1Bs doing some significant part of it, or have the work migrate to India, Eastern Europe, etc., and lose the economic benefit of having the work done here?
Are you out of your mind. There are plenty of people all over this Earth that will do work cheaper than any American will. Are all the jobs in this Nation going to go to them? Only if people with your mindset continue to ship them there while you sit back enjoying the fruits of their labor. You keep doing that there won't be an America for you to sit back in. Of course that's not a problem for you. The Nation doesn't matter just the green or digital bits in the global economy. There is always some nice tropical island to go to.
Are you out of your mind. There are plenty of people all over this Earth that will do work cheaper than any American will.
Then you need to figure out how to get Americans working in industries that pay better salaries, that cannot be done cheaper than Americans can. Then transitioning those that cannot work in those industries towards servicing those industries for the same cost or less than they can be serviced in foreign countries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ih2puo
Are all the jobs in this Nation going to go to them?
They're going to them anyway, and no one is thinking about what to do about it. The methods suggested are facile, preventing people coming here to do a job does not prevent that job going elsewhere if they cannot get the people they need. It's like good old King Canute sitting on his throne ordering the tide to turn.
Placing restraint on corporations to prevent them from moving jobs offshore will just hasten their departure, and with it their revenue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ih2puo
Only if people with your mindset continue to ship them there while you sit back enjoying the fruits of their labor. You keep doing that there won't be an America for you to sit back in. Of course that's not a problem for you. The Nation doesn't matter just the green or digital bits in the global economy. There is always some nice tropical island to go to.
If people without that mindset get their way that's precisely the outcome that will occur. One day you'll wake up and think, why's everyone I know unemployed? Why have all the big famous well known corporations we had moved to other countries or closed? How could we let this happen? However you're permitting it to happen by trying for force a status quo when the world around you is changing. Stopping people coming here to work in industries under serviced by the US system is not going to fix the problem. You have to adapt to your environment and the environment is changing really fast. Evolve or die.
If you're talking unskilled labor, yes. And you can see how that effected manufacturing. However, it's getting to the point where automation is getting cheaper than even unskilled chinese labor, so some of that is coming back.
What I'm talking about is skilled, educated labor. That's a small subset of the worldwide pool of labor. But there still a lot of it out there. The Indians, in particular, were good at developing this. A since a lot of the jobs that fall into this category are information based, there's no real way of preventing these jobs from getting offshored, if the financial impetus is good enough, and managing the remote labor is viable. So if you keep the workers from coming in, the work will get emailed to them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ih2puo
Are you out of your mind. There are plenty of people all over this Earth that will do work cheaper than any American will. Are all the jobs in this Nation going to go to them? Only if people with your mindset continue to ship them there while you sit back enjoying the fruits of their labor. You keep doing that there won't be an America for you to sit back in. Of course that's not a problem for you. The Nation doesn't matter just the green or digital bits in the global economy. There is always some nice tropical island to go to.
Then you need to figure out how to get Americans working in industries that pay better salaries, that cannot be done cheaper than Americans can. Then transitioning those that cannot work in those industries towards servicing those industries for the same cost or less than they can be serviced in foreign countries.
They're going to them anyway, and no one is thinking about what to do about it. The methods suggested are facile, preventing people coming here to do a job does not prevent that job going elsewhere if they cannot get the people they need. It's like good old King Canute sitting on his throne ordering the tide to turn.
Placing restraint on corporations to prevent them from moving jobs offshore will just hasten their departure, and with it their revenue.
If people without that mindset get their way that's precisely the outcome that will occur. One day you'll wake up and think, why's everyone I know unemployed? Why have all the big famous well known corporations we had moved to other countries or closed? How could we let this happen? However you're permitting it to happen by trying for force a status quo when the world around you is changing. Stopping people coming here to work in industries under serviced by the US system is not going to fix the problem. You have to adapt to your environment and the environment is changing really fast. Evolve or die.
I wonder if keeping companies from outsourcing or offshoring is the real motivation behind politicians' petitions to raise the H-1B cap, but they don't want to admit that to the public for fear of scaring the general population of what may lie ahead.
I wonder if keeping companies from outsourcing or offshoring is the real motivation behind politicians' petitions to raise the H-1B cap, but they don't want to admit that to the public for fear of scaring the general population of what may lie ahead.
That is an interesting question. I don't know the answer, I can take a guess, but it would be a guess.
Tell mom and pop thanks for bringing down American wages. That's not an attack. That's just the truth. As you put it a glut of quantity. More and more every decade.
Do you want to try that again? Those of us who are Boomers brought up the wages. Even with H-1Bs from the 90's who had a higher limit than now, jobs were in the 6 figure range. If you want to go further back to my parents, well they were Union. Union wages increased year after year.
If you want to lay blame anywhere; Blame it on greedy Universities who spat out graduates at an increasing rate, Blame it on Banks who gave out unlimited cash, Blame it on people who didn't look further than the tip of their nose and Blame it on outsourcing that started in the early 2000's. There was already a glut 10 years ago. And since there was a glut and graduates had tons of debt, the graduates drove the wage level down over the years because they started accepting lower and lower offers. H-1Bs didn't cause this, American short sitedness caused this.
In my part of IT nearly everything is an emergency situation. So anyone who subs for me has to think quickly without running to a manual. When I interview someone, I know what they typed on their resumes so I don't have to discuss their past. What I do need to know is how they react under a pressure situation. So my first (after the initial meet and greet) step is to use a room, jack up the heat into the 80's and run a humidifier. I seat them in that room, give them a script that has a cover page to give them enough information about a system so they know what they're working on. The script is an actual real world situation and has a few statements on each page. Give them a moment to get situated and then I tell them to resolve and state what they are thinking out loud. Most fail. Not due to lack of knowledge, but due to putting that knowledge into use. I need to know their thinking process. If one is hired, that person is tied to another sub for about three months The training sub(s) know I run an open book business and they can discuss how evil I am and for each one to show their gross pay (when I do it, usually people think its inflated BS). Past that they are contractors and not hourly, so whatever time the job takes is up to them. The contract has a specific set of terms required to be done and anything that occurs outside of it requires a rider which incurs an additional charge.
I wonder if keeping companies from outsourcing or offshoring is the real motivation behind politicians' petitions to raise the H-1B cap, but they don't want to admit that to the public for fear of scaring the general population of what may lie ahead.
One outsources an entire department of people. a H-1B or L-1 is an individual.
Outsourcing usually occurs when technology has grown to a point where the salaries of Americans are too high for the current work they are doing in which usually the workload has dropped dramatically. So usually companies start with layoffs and shift workloads to other people in the company, If that doesn't work then a bid goes out for a insource/outsource for a third party to take over that function. Low bid gets the contract. Once the third party comes in, that department is no longer part of the company's payroll. It is now a fixed expense.
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