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The IT companies are not welfare providers. They want to compete with European, Indian and Chinese companies too. If you don't take the smartest people, Europe, India, and China will.
In her view, all Americans, even the incompetent ones, are entitled to jobs. She doesn't care if the American competitiveness or GDP will decrease because of hiring incompetent workers. Remember how she completely disregarded the fact that Elon Musk created tens of thousands of American jobs and tens of billons of dollars for US GDP? She'd rather he got deported.
She is completely ignorant of the facts that many H-1B workers are talented and that many Americans are downright incapable. In her view, there is absolutely no chance that any H-1B worker can be better than any American worker.
And anyone that disagrees with her will be labeled "cheerleaders of H-1B", "disparaging Americans", "bend over backwards", etc. I've had a fair share of it.
...and just how many of these 'smartest' people do you need per year in the US?
A lot of these arguments are at cross purposes. One person will see only 100k mediocrities, the other will see 100 top of the food chain professionals.
No one denies the H1b program is abused by some companies. But you really think Google, Microsoft, Facebook want to hire mediocre people to save a few thousand dollars?
What I also know is minimally 20,000 H1b visas each year are given to those who have a graduate degree from an accredited US university only. That alone can prove they are more or less "the talented", with more education than average Americans.
A lot of these arguments are at cross purposes. One person will see only 100k mediocrities, the other will see 100 top of the food chain professionals.
The way I see it, the people that see the top accept that the mediocre exist. The people that see the mediocre refuse to acknowledge that the top exist.
Why list all those requirements when you admit that no one possesses all of them? What's the point?
Because a role is what it is, I can fill it with one person, two people or 100 people. What's normal is I'd need around 2-3 people for a role. Some aspects are critical, some are highly desireable, and some are nice to have. Most of the aspects I listed are core requirements, and there are people who meet them, some of the more esoteric technical aspects if they even look like they're following my conversation would probably be enough for me to consider them a viable candidate, because the other requirements would bring them up to speed fast enough for the purposes I need.
Even looking at core requirements of the 350k STEM students graduating in 2014 only around 3,500 would have the potential to meet the core requirements. Everyone else will never meet the bar unless there are some significant changes made in their fundamental nature. The US needs more than 3,500 potential candidates per year. You can't teach someone to enjoy solving problems, puzzles and riddles, you can't teach someone to be flexible and adaptable. You can't teach someone to think outside the box (or that the box is merely a cognitive construct used by people to artificially constrain a problem), you can't teach someone to look past the immediate and at the abstract to extract the pattern that's present in another system you currently have that is used in an entirely different application but can be used in that immediate. Finally you can't teach people to work hard, people will work because they enjoy what they do, they enjoy the benefits of working, or they fear the pain of not working.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
If anything, you present a good argument as to why the whole H1-B visa program needs to be scrapped and in its place put a visa program that only allows for a small number of visas. The fees need to be increased to the point where companies would realize that it would be cheaper to either relocate an experienced American or help get those who have been unemployed for so long that their skills went rusty get up to speed. To sweeten the pot, give them tax breaks for each American hired.
But if someone posted a story about how H-1B's are solving world hunger, pollution, war and petting puppies and kittens you'd find that a good argument as to why the whole H-1B program needs to go away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
Otherwise, we get people who deliberately pass over Americans in favor of H1-Bs by gaming the system, taking advantage of gaping loopholes. That's simply not acceptable---especially when we have thousands of experienced American citizen IT workers who are unemployed.
We, as a nation, need to reduce legal immigration as we can't keep taking in 1 million legal immigrants per year as it strains natural resources. Slow down legal immigration and send illegals packing.
So this is entirely about how you are owed something because of your nationality. You want to force American companies to employ Americans regardless of their suitability to the roles they need to fill simply because they're American. Entitlement comes in many forms, not always with a reaching hand.
No it doesn't strain natural resources, if the natural resources were given unfettered ability to operate freely then there is no natural resource constraint. If those with the big ol' brains (imported or self raised) are allowed to cooperate and collaborate, then any constraint will vanish pretty quickly. Everyone can't be good at everything, if we have the good people here then they're not adding value to a competing economy, they're adding value to our economy, because they'll add value wherever they are. In that market I'd much prefer they add to the US economy than their own, the US economy has enough difficulties without losing the slim and getting slimmer by the day technical edge we currently enjoy.
Why list all those requirements when you admit that no one possesses all of them? What's the point? You do bend over backwards to defend H1-Bs, in each and every post. You seem to think that they are superior to Americans and are determined in each and every post to put down Americans. You called Americans "entitled" for wanting help relocating or help getting up to speed. Yet you defend experienced Americans getting replaced by H1-B "freshers". If you don't feel that way, then why go to great lengths post after post defending the whole H1-B program, despite the amount of fraud and corruption that exists?
If anything, you present a good argument as to why the whole H1-B visa program needs to be scrapped and in its place put a visa program that only allows for a small number of visas. The fees need to be increased to the point where companies would realize that it would be cheaper to either relocate an experienced American or help get those who have been unemployed for so long that their skills went rusty get up to speed. To sweeten the pot, give them tax breaks for each American hired. If it becomes very expensive to bring in H1-Bs, companies and cheaper to hire Americans (getting tax breaks for doing so), companies would only turn to the program when they've truly exhausted all options.
Otherwise, we get people who deliberately pass over Americans in favor of H1-Bs by gaming the system, taking advantage of gaping loopholes. That's simply not acceptable---especially when we have thousands of experienced American citizen IT workers who are unemployed.
We, as a nation, need to reduce legal immigration as we can't keep taking in 1 million legal immigrants per year as it strains natural resources. Slow down legal immigration and send illegals packing.
Please disregard the personal attacks, I didn't know they were allowed.
I had a really good laugh when the so called Affordable Care Act couldn't roll out as I know who worked on the system - wasting our tax dollars. Hint: it was not Americans.
The IT companies are not welfare providers. They want to compete with European, Indian and Chinese companies too. If you don't take the smartest people, Europe, India, and China will.
Furthermore what BOS2IAD, skips over in this entire thread that there Americans in their countries doing the same thing. The need for certain types of specific knowledge is needed in those countries also. I'm an American who has a staff of Americans and we all work primarily in the Middle East in relation to IT. We do have quality graduates in the US. The problem is we don't have the quantity of qualified graduates to cover positions that require certain skill sets. On top of this BOS2IAD is using H-1B, L-1, insourcing and outsourcing interchangeably.
Even looking at core requirements of the 350k STEM students graduating in 2014 only around 3,500 would have the potential to meet the core requirements. Everyone else will never meet the bar unless there are some significant changes made in their fundamental nature. The US needs more than 3,500 potential candidates per year. You can't teach someone to enjoy solving problems, puzzles and riddles, you can't teach someone to be flexible and adaptable. You can't teach someone to think outside the box (or that the box is merely a cognitive construct used by people to artificially constrain a problem), you can't teach someone to look past the immediate and at the abstract to extract the pattern that's present in another system you currently have that is used in an entirely different application but can be used in that immediate. Finally you can't teach people to work hard, people will work because they enjoy what they do, they enjoy the benefits of working, or they fear the pain of not working.
You really think only 1% of all STEM graduates meet "core requirements"? Every year, Microsoft, Apple, Google, Facebook, and Amazon combined hire more STEM graduates than that.
But if someone posted a story about how H-1B's are solving world hunger, pollution, war and petting puppies and kittens you'd find that a good argument as to why the whole H-1B program needs to go away.
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^Darn right! They can solve world hunger, pollution, war and they can pet puppies and kittens in their own country. India and China desperately need to solve their pollution problems.
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So this is entirely about how you are owed something because of your nationality. You want to force American companies to employ Americans regardless of their suitability to the roles they need to fill simply because they're American. Entitlement comes in many forms, not always with a reaching hand.
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^Darn right again! Have you ever heard the expression "Charity starts at home"? Do you know what it means? It means we take care of our own first and foremost and if there is anything left over, we help others. As an analogy---would you move strangers into your home then feed, clothe, and shelter them at the expense of your own family?
Besides, if you read what I said repeatedly---and I'll say it once again---If every American citizen IT worker was fielding several job offers with great salaries to the point where jobs are going begging, that's when you bring in visa workers. Bring them in on visas that don't lead to a green card so that way if Americans are unemployed, the visa workers can be sent home. See? You know, "Charity starts at home".
If the Indians are such geniuses, they can do great things in their own country. Do you think India would allow throngs of Americans into India on work visas? Is it right for first world countries to poach third world talent?
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Good grief! It's a simple equation which the powers that be in CA haven't seemed to figure out --- more people=more demands for water. India has 1 billion people and not enough potable water. That would happen here if we were to grow to 1 billion people. We also are running out of buildable land as it isn't an infinite resource. Big cities are experiencing horrible traffic gridlock which will only get worse with more people.
We don't need to keep bringing in 1 million legal immigrants per year and we need to send the illegals packing. Period.
Furthermore what BOS2IAD, skips over in this entire thread that there Americans in their countries doing the same thing. The need for certain types of specific knowledge is needed in those countries also. I'm an American who has a staff of Americans and we all work primarily in the Middle East in relation to IT. We do have quality graduates in the US. The problem is we don't have the quantity of qualified graduates to cover positions that require certain skill sets. On top of this BOS2IAD is using H-1B, L-1, insourcing and outsourcing interchangeably.
You do realize that these days Americans are looking for work overseas because they can't find it here. One difference between Americans and those on H1-Bs --- the vast majority of those Americans will return home as soon as they can.
Insourcing and outsourcing are bad either way. And your point is, what exactly?
And what is your company doing to help those talented Americans who could easily learn those "skill sets"? I'm betting the answer is "nothing" which is used as an excuse to bring in H1-Bs who may not even be talented but they work cheap.
You really think only 1% of all STEM graduates meet "core requirements"? Every year, Microsoft, Apple, Google, Facebook, and Amazon combined hire more STEM graduates than that.
I actually think it's less.
How many of those grads are still working at one of MS/Goog/FB/Amazon/APPL in 1 or 2 years?
They're just throwing bodies that stand a chance of survival in the grinder to see who rises and who's ground up. No I'm not joking, the old 1990's meat grinders still exist, they just have very thin foam padding on the teeth now to avoid scratches, but if your hand gets too far in you'll still lose your arm.
You also got to remember the ol' 90-10 rule, 90% of the work is done by 10% of the people, the other 10% of the work is done by 90% of the people. So if you hire 1% say you're actually expecting 350 people to be keepers, and 3150 to be fillers.
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