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My response remains the same: Taxpayers should not foot the bill for abortions.
I agree. As much as I would hope someone would choose life over death, in the end, it's your decision. You can do whatever you want. Just don't expect me to pay for something that I morally oppose.
Why do you assume you have to be religious to be pro-life? Because most anti-choice people are so based on religious dogma.
If the chicken egg hasn't been fertilized, it's not the same thing. I already clarified in another post "a fertilized egg"
People control your body all the time. (See below.) And this is about someone else's body.
I disagree, it is my body that needs to carry the fetus.
I think this is the thing that irks me most about the abortion-rights debate -- when it's couched in terms of "choice." It's not about choice, it's about abortion rights. If you support a "woman's right to choose," do you support her right to own any type of firearm she wants? To take drugs? To sell her body for money? To decide whether to wear a seat belt in her own car? To smoke in a public place? If you said no to any of these, you're not supporting "a woman's right to choose," you're supporting abortion rights. Which is fine, but call it what it is.
I don't really care if it "irks" you or not. It is about choice. A woman should have a choice if she finds herself pregnant, to either continue with the pregnancy or to end the pregnancy. I hope I will never need to make that choice, but I want the possiblity to decide for myself, if I ever need to. I don't need anyone else to tell me what I can or can't do with MY body.
But call it what you want, abortion rights - whatever, it doesn't make a difference. Women should have the right to decide when and if they want children.
I can understand your not wanting to do something because of your religious beliefs, but if I don't share those religious beliefs, why you think you have a right to remove my rights.
This is the part I don't think a lot of people in this thread have seriously considered. I used to be opposed to Roe v. Wade myself (it was the socially conservative belief I held onto the longest) because I believed that life began before others did. It then dawned on me that that was my belief, and also my prerogative not to have an abortion if I felt it was wrong. I realized I was trying to push that belief onto others. And what complicates matters is telling someone what to do with their bodies. That should make people uncomfortable, at least. I really can't think of another issue that is comparable; I guess that's why it's so heavily debated.
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Katz, that's just GreatDay's way. He ignores what you say and makes another statement; it is a great pattern to watch.
Worse than that is something I see some professed liberals and conservatives do (though, I must say more conservatives)--the ad hominem stuff. It's unproductive and doesn't help the person's case, but that never stops them, it seems.
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Originally Posted by katzenfreund
They always believe in less government, UNLESS it serves to further their religious right wing agenda.
I've also noticed that some feel this way. I don't understand why they don't just admit that they are not completely opposed to big government.
"Roe" from Roe v Wade actually ended up not getting the abortion because the final court decision was not handed down until long after she gave birth. She is quite happy that it worked out that way and now regrets the role she played in basically legalizing infanticide in this country.
I've met many women who ended up glad they let their baby live -- and even admitted almost in horror that the idea of abortion crossed their mind because it seemed like such an easy way out. But not many look at their 18 year old offspring and regret not killing him/her. Even those mothers that reunite with children they adopted never seem to wish they had gone ahead and had that child killed.
And what about children who realize their own mother killed some of their siblings? That their mother would have had them killed too if they weren't "convenient" enough.
I don't really care if it "irks" you or not. It is about choice. A woman should have a choice if she finds herself pregnant, to either continue with the pregnancy or to end the pregnancy. I hope I will never need to make that choice, but I want the possiblity to decide for myself, if I ever need to. I don't need anyone else to tell me what I can or can't do with MY body.
But call it what you want, abortion rights - whatever, it doesn't make a difference. Women should have the right to decide when and if they want children.
And there's nothing wrong with a billboard that helps convince a woman not to make the worst choice of her life. Before the death decision is finalized -- she should see the alternative.
And there's nothing wrong with a billboard that helps convince a woman not to make the worst choice of her life. Before the death decision is finalized -- she should see the alternative.
Give it a rest will you?
I don't know how many times I have said that I am not proposing to make the billboards illegal.
However they have never changed my mind, in fact they have done quite the opposite.
I don't really care if it "irks" you or not. It is about choice. A woman should have a choice if she finds herself pregnant, to either continue with the pregnancy or to end the pregnancy. I hope I will never need to make that choice, but I want the possiblity to decide for myself, if I ever need to. I don't need anyone else to tell me what I can or can't do with MY body.
But call it what you want, abortion rights - whatever, it doesn't make a difference. Women should have the right to decide when and if they want children.
Maybe the woman should have chosen to keep her legs crossed. Perhaps the daddy has a say in the matter?
It's already started, Kay Kay. Women who have birth control prescriptions are not having them filled by "religious" pharmacists (who still dispense viagra).
What I don't get is that you're conservative, from other posts I've read, and you believe that the government should have less involvement in peoples lives, yet, you want to take what I do with my body away from me.
I can understand your not wanting to do something because of your religious beliefs, but if I don't share those religious beliefs, why you think you have a right to remove my rights.
Not being snarky, seriously interested.
Katz, that's just GreatDay's way. He ignores what you say and makes another statement; it is a great pattern to watch.
Well, let's start with the beginning of your post. My husband teases me and says I'm really a "closet democrat" because on many issues I would probably lean more towards the democratic side of things. So...I can't answer for others, but for me, abortion is probably the defining issue (along with maybe a couple of others but mostly abortion) that has IMO "forced" me into the position of being a life-long Republican. But to be fair, my husband, who is also pro-life, would probably more accurately fit the description of a classic Republican (less government.) I would just have to say that for him, it might seem a dichotomy of belief simply because he believes that life has already begun and that is the prime moral principle regarding this one issue. For example, he might believe in "less government," but he doesn't believe we shouldn't have laws to protect people either.
About the pharmaceutical issue, as I understand it, most of the controversy swirls around items which prevent the implantation of an already fertilized egg or which possibly could at the least. This doesn't fall in the realm of birth control as much as it is an abortifacient. This is my belief since I believe "life" begins at fertilization, not implantation. Horse of a different color.
And then, of course, to address the issue of the "rights." Well, that's why this issue is obviously controversial. Pro-life advocates, like myself, certainly believe that a woman has a right to medical decisions concerning her own body. However, when a fetus is involved, the picture changes. Someone else's rights are now involved. We've got a "clash of rights" if you will. And though many see it differently (obviously!) I have come down on the side of the fetus because I believe it IS already a life and that the baby's "right to life" weighs in stronger than the woman's "right to control her own body"--at least at that point.
I know you won't agree, but hope this explains maybe some apparent enigmas and /or contradictions of a "conservative" having a pro-life position.
And what about children who realize their own mother killed some of their siblings? That their mother would have had them killed too if they weren't "convenient" enough.
And what about the children who realize their own mother killed some of their siblings so that the family's quality of life did not fall in the wrong direction? Or... what about the children who realize their own mother killed some of their siblings so that she would be able to raise the only child she could bear. Or what about the children who realize their own mother is so unfit to be a mother that even after said mother is dead, that child still says, "I wish I was aborted".
We could argue back and forth on the "what ifs" of abortion.
Fact of the matter is, until scientists devise a way to remove an unwanted fetus from the mother's body without killing it - abortion will occur and I will support the decision of any mother who would rather be responsible to have an abortion vice adding another unwanted child to the population of children in foster care.
Maybe the woman should have chosen to keep her legs crossed. Perhaps the daddy has a say in the matter?
OK... whatever you say Ideally both would decide together, but if they don't agree, it's the woman's choice.
When the "Daddy" starts carrying the fetus, THEN it is his decision. Woman do have their own brains and are perfectly capable of making their own decisions. Imagine that...
Last edited by katzenfreund; 01-29-2008 at 08:34 AM..
Reason: spelling
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