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America is no different than any other country in the world in the history of time despite the rationalization, self-glorification and self-justification. "American Exceptionalism" is now the de rigueur used to justify Imperialism. If we can self deceive ourselves as special then we can intervene in the internal affairs of other countries through internal subversions, local militias and armed invasions. We start with the notion that it is our right and duty to intervene in the internal affairs of other countries because we thereby create freedom, democracy and improved economic ability for the inhabitants of that nation. In reality the aftermath of the nation subjected to US intervention is opposite of what was fantasied it was going to be. Witness Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and Syria.
I never saw that movie. Anyway, my point isn't that the U.S. is viewed positively.
Yes it is. I have been to foreign countries including Russia where a Russian man asked me if people really lived like that (90210), even just this summer. We have excellent propaganda. However everyone I talked to, in the hundreds , were bemused at the "collapsed economy" news coming from the US.
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It is that Russia's neighbors are clearly aware of the threat posed by the Russian leadership. Norwegians and Finns
I have friends in Finland and I had a nice little barbecue with them. They told me simply that the Russian position was that if Finland joined Nato then Russia would have to deploy defences. They did not see it as a particular threat. Russia is not a dictatorship. Their leadership still has to explain an invasion to its people. I don't think they would be easy to convince an invasion of Finland. They are convince that ethnic cleansing was nigh in Eastern Ukraine, as were Ossetians. I can provide you historical source of ethnic tension between Georgians and Ossetians going back a hundred years. Russia was purely on the defence.
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(as well as Estonians and Poles, who were not on the list) are unambiguously concerned about Russia's aggressive, expansionist agenda. That concern isn't the result of American propaganda.
Oh it sure is. What expansionist agenda? There isn't a single place where they were not wanted by the locals.
I think the more important question is how former Warsaw Pact nations feel about their security vis a vis Russia. The answer clearly has that there is ample historical precedent for Hungary, the Czech Republic, Poland, the Baltic states and the Ukraine to be concerned about the threats posed to their national sovereignty by Russia in all of it's iterations.
Now it has been argue(sic) that by joining NATO these nations get free stuff, well the truth is they have would have received economic support form the West whether they joined NATO or not. What they want as a result of joining NATO is the insurance of military support against their perceived threats posed by Russia.
Perhaps a new organization will be established instead of the UN. The winners of a new world war will create it. And, unfortunately, the United States provoking that world war.
We do not need a world government. But we need national borders and alliances that make sense. In the Middle East, Shiites should only be with other Shiites, Sunnis with other Sunnis, Jews with other Jews, Kurds with Kurds, Alawites with Alawites, Yazidis with Yazidis, Coptic Christians with Coptic Christians.
The problem with both the Balkans and the Middle East was that incompatible groups were living with each other. That problem worked itself out -- with great bloodshed -- in the Balkans. It hasn't yet done so in the Middle East. In Russia, there are Muslim enclaves that do not fit in to Russian culture. In the U.S., we have immigrants who increasingly are not fitting in. The same is happening in Europe.
If the U.S. is not going to isolate itself, then I would like it to form a broad economic and military alliance with culturally compatible countries in Europe, including Russia. That would include Canada, Australia and New Zealand. There is no good reason why Europe, the U.S. and Russia should be at odds with each other. They all have problems with non-Western countries and they need to deal with them as allies and as economic partners. Certain Asian countries -- India, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines, and Thailand could be part of this alliance.
The U.S. has foolishly fought wars that it was unlikely to win, and even if it won them, there was no exit strategy. Korea, Vietnam, the first war in Iraq, the second war in Iraq: Not only were they unwinnable playing by Marquis of Queensbury rules, we didn't even get anything out of them. No oil, no rice, no rubber, no other resources that we might have exploited. We "fought" these wars with one hand tied behind our backs.
The rationale for fighting two of them (Korea and Vietnam) was to weaken Communism. And neither of those wars did that. The same goes for our involvement in Nicaragua and Cuba. At best, we got Russian missiles removed from Cuba. In many cases we made things worse: in Cambodia, for example. Also in Libya. You really have to wonder whether these endless wars have only happened because companies that supply war materiel lobbied Congress and our presidents to keep their businesses profitable.
The height of absurdity was our notion that we could nation build and spread democracy in Muslim countries. If you know anything about Islam, you know that is impossible. But again, look at the money that was to be made by contractors in those countries.
And what kind of "war on terror" is fought without securing the nation's borders, keeping un-vetted Muslims out of the country, and profiling likely terrorists and illegal aliens? Our government has not been serious about protecting the American people at all.
The fundamental mistake Americans have made is to think that people in the Third World can be more "like us" than people in Russia and Europe. Just sprinkle democracy and capitalism on those countries, et voila, they become our little brothers. Dumb idea. But apparently, out "best and brightest" believed it and continue to believe it. That's where their trumpeting about "American exceptionalism," "America as a beacon of freedom and prosperity," and "America as the greatest country in the world" trips them up.
Borders, language and culture are much more important considerations than such internationalist idealism.
I think if Trump sat down with Putin, we could have a very good relationship with Russia and eventually become allies, along with the Europeans. Then, together, we could deal with these problems.
Last edited by dechatelet; 01-08-2016 at 11:34 PM..
Assad was not democratically elected. He is a dictator that made sure he would not lose the mock elections (much like Putin). Rigged elections do not make a democracy. Also, the US is not bombing any of Assad's military only ISIS/Al Qaeda. And yet another also - the same reason the international community intervenes in Syria goes for the Balkan (Serbia) War - to stop a humanitarian disaster. This is the premise of the UN Charter that also agreed that nations having a humanitarian stake in a conflict have a right to militarily intervene (and the NATO nations did). The only reason it was not brought to the UN Security Council is because Russia would have vetoed the proposal. Getting that council's approval was not necessary due to the clear language of the charter.
You still did not address the poster. It does not matter how Assad got in power, it only matters if he is recognized as the leader which yes, he ism Saudi Arabia is also a dictatorship and the US sells billions of dollars worth of weapons to them and will risk the lives of our military to defend them.
As the poster stated, Russia does not need UN authorization to he in Syria, Syria invited them in. Syria has not invited the US in yet the US conducts military engagements in Syria, violating Syrian territory.
Also, you mention humanitarian disaster, but left out the US and it's coalition supplying weapons to Syrian rebels which include terror groups. Yes, includes terror groups because the US does not supply anti air weapons because the US knows they will use them in a terror attack.
I think the more important question is how former Warsaw Pact nations feel about their security vis a vis Russia. The answer clearly has that there is ample historical precedent for Hungary, the Czech Republic, Poland, the Baltic states and the Ukraine to be concerned about the threats posed to their national sovereignty by Russia in all of it's iterations.
Now it has been argue(sic) that by joining NATO these nations get free stuff, well the truth is they have would have received economic support form the West whether they joined NATO or not. What they want as a result of joining NATO is the insurance of military support against their perceived threats posed by Russia.
Really, and those countries have never taken part in invasions before? Only Russia has ever done land grabs and military interventions?
I am still wondering what this threat is, if Russia wanted to, they would have steamed rolled Georgia and Ukraine by now. As abother poster has stated, Russia is not involved anywhere except were the local population wants them. Even in Ukraine, look at the 2010 election map, you will see the areas that supported Yankovic also are the ones who want to break away from Keiv.
Assad was not democratically elected. He is a dictator that made sure he would not lose the mock elections (much like Putin). Rigged elections do not make a democracy.
Really? And when does NATO plan to start bombing Russia for freedom and democracy?
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Originally Posted by Bulldawg82
Also, the US is not bombing any of Assad's military only ISIS/Al Qaeda. And yet another also - the same reason the international community intervenes in Syria goes for the Balkan (Serbia) War - to stop a humanitarian disaster. This is the premise of the UN Charter that also agreed that nations having a humanitarian stake in a conflict have a right to militarily intervene (and the NATO nations did).
Ok, but a humanitarian disaster spreading in the Ukraine. Will NATO oppose to a full invasion of Russia in Ukraine, if Russia will try stop a humanitarian disaster? Or does NATO have the exclusive right to interpret the UN Charter?
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Originally Posted by Bulldawg82
The only reason it was not brought to the UN Security Council is because Russia would have vetoed the proposal. Getting that council's approval was not necessary due to the clear language of the charter.
NATO playing with fire. NATO not listening to the UN Security Council, but new organization will be established only after a new big war.
Last edited by Maksim_Frolov; 01-09-2016 at 02:13 AM..
Then the Russians said that the US is attacking the wrong targets and helping ISIS. I scoffed at that at first. Typical Russians I thought being raised during the Cold War. Then other reports from our allies came out, like the Iraqi Army saying they witnessed US planes dropping supplies on ISIS controlled area. US airstrikes that either missed their targets or hit the wrong targets. COME ON, this doesn't happen in today's modern military!
This stuff absolutely can and does happen in today's modern military. One example I can think of off the top of my head, is in 2002, a US F-16 dropped a 500 lb laser guided bomb on Canadian troops engaged in night anti-tank and machine gun exercises, killing four, and wounding eight, despite their AWACS controller telling them to hold fire.
An accident, without doubt, but things like this do happen.
It's starting to dawn on me that the Russians seem to be telling the world more truth about what is happening in the middle east than our government is. They seem to have a more clear purpose and they seem to be actually trying to do the right thing. I have no idea what the US is doing against ISIS.
The Russians have been establishing their credibility for me for some time now. They have surprised me in more than a few issues, even though I still think that Putin is a corrupt thug...I do think he loves his country and is loyal to it. I have no faith in the loyalty of our President who I think is thinking about his own place in the world, not our place as a nation in the world.
The Russian passenger plane that was brought down. I thought for sure Putin would use that as PR to launch more military force when they did the exact opposite. Their investigation was clear and complete and they really didn't make any statements except they were working to get to the truth.
Then the Russians said that the US is attacking the wrong targets and helping ISIS. I scoffed at that at first. Typical Russians I thought being raised during the Cold War. Then other reports from our allies came out, like the Iraqi Army saying they witnessed US planes dropping supplies on ISIS controlled area. US airstrikes that either missed their targets or hit the wrong targets. COME ON, this doesn't happen in today's modern military!
So really, what is happening to our country? We do not seem to be doing right by the world anymore.
We definitely need a better POTUS, there's no doubt about that. Obama seems lost and confused. On the one hand, he's embarrassed to be an American and embarrassed by many things that he believes America shouldn't have done internationally. On the other hand, he craves acceptance by Americans, leading him to actually try to act in our nation's best interests every now and then.
While Russia is very clear on things, they're also acting far too much like old Nazi Germany for my liking. Any country with any ethnic Russian population at all has a great big target painted on it. Sooner or later, the Russians will contrive a reason to invade them. Russia took Crimea and they're trying to con their way into taking the entire Ukraine. They're not happy about losing their Communist Era empire and seem hell-bent on reconquering it by force. Sure, you can at least trust Russia to act in their own interests, but they're acting pretty scary right now and I'm not about to praise them for it.
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