Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I think it is time as a nation we realize that it shouldn't be the why terrorist acts are being committed but rather the how and how to stop it. If those 18 acts by non-Muslim Americans don't show reason enough for the Patriot Act, I don't know what will. The need of the many are greater than the need of the one.
I am coming to the realization that you just can't control or prevent crazy, and I think terrorism is pretty damn crazy no matter what the cause...
The good news, perhaps, is that we are at least not dealing with the likes of the two world wars or major military conflicts like with Korea, Vietnam or Iraq at the huge expense of thousands of American lives. Now we are somehow doing what we can to be vigilant, perhaps stop some acts of terrorism here or there, but we simply cannot stop all acts of violence. Sadly, we can and should do what we can from a prevention standpoint, but I don't think we can expect the violence to stop anymore than could have been expected at any time in man's history.
We humans just can't find peace, but at least we are now at a relative point of improvement where we aren't killing one another in quite as high numbers as we have in the past...
I think it is time as a nation we realize that it shouldn't be the why terrorist acts are being committed but rather the how and how to stop it. If those 18 acts by non-Muslim Americans don't show reason enough for the Patriot Act, I don't know what will. The need of the many are greater than the need of the one.
I thought that article cited here was an interesting analysis. & whatever/however you feel about these modern day militias, most will agree they sure aren't preparing to fight a foreign invader nor are they preparing to defend/protect fellow Americans. This from that same article:
"And while those right-wing militia members were occupying federal land, other extremists around the country were hard at work.
Fliers seeking recruits for the KKK appeared on lawns and doors in Alabama, California, Georgia, New Jersey and Oklahoma.
In Johannesburg, California, police discovered bombs and booby traps in the home of a man who threatened to blow up the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and other federal buildings.
In Colorado Springs, a white supremacist suspected of being connected to the 2013 murder of Colorado’s prison chief was shot and wounded in a firefight with police.
In Lafayette, Louisiana, officials released the diary of the man who killed two people at a movie theater this past summer—it was filled with rage against the federal government and praise for a racist killer.
In Oakdale, California, two honey farmers were charged with fraud involving a scheme by extremists who declare they are not bound by the laws of any government.
And the day after the first arrests of the Malheur occupiers,
a New Hampshire man who told an FBI informant he was part of a group that wanted to bring back “the original Constitution,” and had as much as $200,000 on hand for explosives and rockets, was taken into custody after he illegally purchased hand grenades."
They aren't anti-government. What they oppose (and with some justification) is the federal abuse of power. It may be with regard to land use, water rights, etc... the list is long and the federal government isn't accountable to anyone. You may not like their tactics but their underlying argument has more than a little merit.
There are many who oppose federal policies, I didn't care for the Citizens United decision but I'm not going to attend an armed protest or threaten federal agents.
Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
This quote has been twisted in recent years by people using it for their viewpoint on the role of the fed police powers (both liberal and conservative)
I was originally for the patriot act but admit it was an emotional over-reaction. By 2002 I was firmly against. That being said, to me, the quote itself still stands the test of time... Especially outside 'our' politics.
Ben Franklin is also thought to have said, "Vision without implementation is hallucination."
Some of these Anti-American groups seem to be delusional. It's worth noting the mistrust of government is not always based on well-informed constituents but perhaps equally based on unfacts, on ideology & not grounded in reality, & on propaganda & misinformation.
Very often, the narcissistic escapist messages do not lead to an increase in social awareness or even creative enterprise, just more of the same o lame o ideology.
A healthy dose of cynicism is fine (& even beneficial) when considering government’s role in social &/or other types of change. However when the cynicism remains indifferent to, or even contemptuous of, complexity in favor of simplistic & habitual skepticism? This only serves as yet another obstruction to meaningful discourse & progress.
Some of these Anti-American groups seem to be all out to implement their nightmarish hallucinations. Understatement of the year, it's simply not healthy.
They aren't anti-government. What they oppose (and with some justification) is the federal abuse of power. It may be with regard to land use, water rights, etc... the list is long and the federal government isn't accountable to anyone. You may not like their tactics but their underlying argument has more than a little merit.
Ironic that some might abuse the use of firepower to fight abuse of federal power, but either way these folks are altogether hair-brained. I am also not altogether sure these folks are not simply anti-government after reading all too many plain anti-government comments in these threads, but either way it might help to know what their suggested better alternative might be. Not all of us want to live up in mountain country hunting our night's dinner to be served in a bunker full of weapons, ammo and survival supplies.
Reminds me of my dad always asking not to come to him with a problem without a proposed solution. That's were a lot of these knuckleheads fall well short I think...
Ben Franklin is also thought to have said, "Vision without implementation is hallucination."
Some of these Anti-American groups seem to be delusional. It's worth noting the mistrust of government is not always based on well-informed constituents but perhaps equally based on unfacts, on ideology & not grounded in reality, & on propaganda & misinformation.
Very often, the narcissistic escapist messages do not lead to an increase in social awareness or even creative enterprise, just more of the same o lame o ideology.
A healthy dose of cynicism is fine (& even beneficial) when considering government’s role in social &/or other types of change. However when the cynicism remains indifferent to, or even contemptuous of, complexity in favor of simplistic & habitual skepticism? This only serves as yet another obstruction to meaningful discourse & progress.
Some of these Anti-American groups seem to be all out to implement their nightmarish hallucinations. Understatement of the year, it's simply not healthy.
I'm neither cynical and not nearly as skeptical as I once was. However, the ever increasing scope of enforcement powers, whether drone use within borders or gov agencies setting up shadow companies with ISPs to have access to info flowing through their network (firsthand knowledge of that) is quite unsettling.
I can argue for liberty there often isn't safety. Just look at violent acts on the name of liberty. Oklahoma City, Atlanta, 9/11, London, Paris, etc. Does violence in the name of liberty make it alright?
No, not when breaking a codified law unless said proponent is actually promoting armed insurrection.
And if it armed insurrection, then that's another question. Look at the internal debate on appropriate amount of force externally, and evenore succinct, should force and 'law' even be utilized?
My main point is, our privacy, and much more, has eroded greatly, and increasingly, over the last 40-45 years. I'm actually more Leary at the scope creep done under the guise 'war' on drugs then the militia movement. However, at both turns, it is ultimately the regular citizen who loses more liberty.
Ironic that some might abuse the use of firepower to fight abuse of federal power, but either way these folks are altogether hair-brained. I am also not altogether sure these folks are not simply anti-government after reading all too many plain anti-government comments in these threads, but either way it might help to know what their suggested better alternative might be. Not all of us want to live up in mountain country hunting our night's dinner to be served in a bunker full of weapons, ammo and survival supplies.
Reminds me of my dad always asking not to come to him with a problem without a proposed solution. That's were a lot of these knuckleheads fall well short I think...
I think your Dad was smart.
As for the anti-American groups solutions? Color me skeptical. When proffered, I think their 'cure' can be worse than the disease.
& of course, the 'might makes right' tactics & violence indicate an unhealthy vision if you can call it that (hallucination).
I can argue for liberty there often isn't safety. Just look at violent acts on the name of liberty. Oklahoma City, Atlanta, 9/11, London, Paris, etc. Does violence in the name of liberty make it alright?
There are justifications for violence as we all well know going back to our country's first acts of violence in the name of liberty. I don't think terrorism well fits in that same category but even "terrorism" is subject to a certain level of subjectivity. Was it wrong for native Americans, for example, to attempt terrorism to rid the white man from their land?
What makes for justification or not is a matter of judgment, fortunately a call that most of us in modern day society don't need to make like once upon a time, but also of course we suffer today as a result of those who exercise such poor judgement in these regards...
I'm neither cynical and not nearly as skeptical as I once was. However, the ever increasing scope of enforcement powers, whether drone use within borders or gov agencies setting up shadow companies with ISPs to have access to info flowing through their network (firsthand knowledge of that) is quite unsettling.
I think it makes sense to be cynical &/or skeptical about the things you've mentioned here. & I agree with you, these things are unsettling.
Personally, the growth of Anti-American Militias are concerning as well.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Abuse...
