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Well, sure, if you're a Constitutional Patriot you can. Geesh, don't you know them patriots aren't like the rest us?
I have to say, every time I watch that video from inside the car I am struck with how totally divorced from reality LaVoy was. He truly thought if he got to the next county the sheriff there would protect him from arrest. I almost feel sorry for him. He was really out there on the outer edges of reality.
It's gonna happen again, just reading the posts here that are attempting to defend the actions of any of these militia types insures their armed appearance in the future at some other roadblock, some other federal property, some other town, it's going to become a kind of war of wills. Those who fail to condemn these miscreants are bound to their philosophy, not to mention the notion of being caught in the crossfire during one of these "patriot" events.
I am sick and tired of these idiots aligning themselves with any valid ranching operators, who really believed this was about ranching anyway? This has been the tip of a very large iceberg of far right wing philosophy that includes a deadly notion of political autonomy wherein the imagined "rights" of these super patriots trump the rights of the rest of us. "seizing" public property is theft of that which belongs to all, these guys believe the government is a kind of separate entity, one that is outside of our democracy.
Most ranchers I know have utilized the democratic system to their advantage, the BLM land is being used extensively by cattle ranchers, big and small, they all get some consideration, hell even Ammon was on the governments teat at the time of his lofty proclamations of independence, maybe he figured he could stick us with his bill from the SBA loans he took. If I was in LE I'd be tempted to give no quarter to those who swear their allegiance to my demise. We certainly have an imperfect government---but that is no reason to change it by the threat of death to government employees. Hang em high...
You seem to be conveniently overlooking the fact that in Finicum's own words state that he wants the police to shoot him. He not only stated this in the heat of the moment, but in interviews before the traffic stop occurred. He then took this to its logical conclusion by forcing the police to shoot him. Why if someone states that they want to commit suicide by cop multiple times, then proceeds to commit suicide by cop, would you doubt that their intention was to commit suicide by cop? His statement that he 'wants to see the sheriff' is entirely irrelevant, as he doesn't get to choose the terms of his arrest, and the conversation in car makes it clear that the rest of the occupants understand this.
He actions also clearly show that he did not intend to surrender. To claim that he would have surrendered if the FBI hadn't shot, and only chose to commit suicide by cop at that point is absurd, and you know this. He had dozens of opportunities to peacefully surrender before this point, and he never chose to take them. He had plenty of time to stop before he reached the roadblock, and he chose not to stop. Immediately before being fired on by the FBI, he was fired on three times by the OSP as he rushed the roadblock, so it was not like the FBI were the first that tried to kill him.
Finicum said they would have to shoot him to stop him from seeing the sheriff. You seem to conveniently overlooking that fact.
What does Finicum getting out of his truck with his hands up tell you? It tells me he had no intention of harming anyone, and he could well have been in the process of surrendering. He only put his hands down near his waist after the police tried to kill him, not once, but twice, and the second time he had his hands up in the air, in a surrendering posture.
Finicum said they would have to shoot him to stop him from seeing the sheriff. You seem to conveniently overlooking that fact.
What does Finicum getting out of his truck with his hands up tell you? It tells me he had no intention of harming anyone, and he could well have been in the process of surrendering. He only put his hands down near his waist after the police tried to kill him, not once, but twice, and the second time he had his hands up in the air, in a surrendering posture.
As soon as he steps out of the truck BEFORE the two shots are heard he yells "go ahead and shoot me". That speaks to his intentions.
As soon as he steps out of the truck BEFORE the two shots are heard he yells "go ahead and shoot me". That speaks to his intentions.
Indeed.
Including everything that preceded it.
Quote:
“I’m not going to end up in prison,” said Mr. Finicum, 54, who often appeared at news conferences wearing a broad cowboy hat on his head and a sidearm on his hip.
“I would rather die than be caged. And I’ve lived a good life.”
Finicum said, he was going to the sheriff's, and they could follow them, and talk to them there.
He never made any threats to harm anyone. He never even said to anyone in the truck that he had any intentions to harming anyone. He asked the people inside the truck if they wanted out, then told them he is going to the sheriff. At no point did he every say he was going to harm anyone.
How often do people wanted on felony charges get to dictate to law enforcement when and where they can be arrested?
It's gonna happen again, just reading the posts here that are attempting to defend the actions of any of these militia types insures their armed appearance in the future at some other roadblock, some other federal property, some other town, it's going to become a kind of war of wills. Those who fail to condemn these miscreants are bound to their philosophy, not to mention the notion of being caught in the crossfire during one of these "patriot" events.
I am sick and tired of these idiots aligning themselves with any valid ranching operators, who really believed this was about ranching anyway? This has been the tip of a very large iceberg of far right wing philosophy that includes a deadly notion of political autonomy wherein the imagined "rights" of these super patriots trump the rights of the rest of us. "seizing" public property is theft of that which belongs to all, these guys believe the government is a kind of separate entity, one that is outside of our democracy.
Most ranchers I know have utilized the democratic system to their advantage, the BLM land is being used extensively by cattle ranchers, big and small, they all get some consideration, hell even Ammon was on the governments teat at the time of his lofty proclamations of independence, maybe he figured he could stick us with his bill from the SBA loans he took. If I was in LE I'd be tempted to give no quarter to those who swear their allegiance to my demise. We certainly have an imperfect government---but that is no reason to change it by the threat of death to government employees. Hang em high...
So I guess that if you haven't yet, you were about to tell us how sick you are of the left-wing crazies in the Occupy Wall Street movement, and their ideas of how their right to free stuff trumps our rights. And you were about to condemn those that took over our public spaces in over 100 cities. You were about to talk about how they caused much more harm, and broke many more laws, and cost the taxpayers many times more that the Oregon standoff.
Maybe you are about to go on a long rant about how dangerous some within the BLM are, and how they are terrorist.
You were about to do all of that right? I mean, you want to be fair don't you?
You people make me sick with how you criticize a group that didn't hurt anyone, all the while you ignore those that took over public property for months, and cost the taxpayers 100 million dollars or more. You even support the grievances of those that riot, burn, steal, rape, and kill, all to "protest" the wrongdoings of the government, all the while you turn a blind eye to their terrible crimes.
There is no doubt that those involved in the Bundy, and Oregon standoffs were wrong, but to paint them as these terrible, dangerous terrorist is beyond absurd, when they in fact haven't hurt anyone.
Finicum believed in the soverign sheriff movement (or whatever its called). A lot of these people believe the county sheriff is the topmost law officer, whose authority supersedes all other law enforcement, whether it be city, state or federal.
LaVoy was so intent on driving to John Day because the Sheriff of Grant county, Glenn Palmer, is (or was) an outspoken law officer who is sympathetic to the Oathkeepers and the other threepers. Finicum was sure Palmer would give him and the rest in his truck protection from the OSP and the FBI. None of the occupiers were getting anything from the Sheriff in Carney county.
Since doing that would be unlawful, I seriously doubt Palmer would have done it Even a blowhard Sheriff wouldn't break the law with so much national attention going on.
When Finicum learned just a few minutes earlier that the first OSP troopers weren't willing to shoot him, even though he taunted them for about 5 minutes, I think he believed he would get away with it twice when he got out of the truck after it became stuck in the snowbank.
Reaching for a weapon 3 times while continuing to taunt the second group of troopers, seconds after he nearly ran over one of them, was pure, double-distilled stupidity.
Finicum had a death wish. He got what he wanted.
If he had wanted to live, all he had to do was get out, put his hands up, and wait for directions. Any fool knows that. That was exactly what Ryan Bundy did a few minutes later, along with both the women who followed, and none of them were injured or shot.
Finicum said they would have to shoot him to stop him from seeing the sheriff.
There was a warrant out for his arrest. He doesn't get to dictate terms. If he doesn't want to comply peacefully, use of force is merited. And that is his choice.
Quote:
What does Finicum getting out of his truck with his hands up tell you?
What does him reaching for a weapon after signaling intent to surrender tell us? I shouldn't speak ill of the dead, but... In war, we call that perfidy.
He was given ample opportunity to settle things peacefully. He declared, multiple times, that he didn't want that. For weeks, he could have stepped down and given himself up. At the first roadblock, he could have faced reality - but he chose to be confrontational instead. So after weeks of defiance in word and deed, you can only hang your argument on speculating on his state of mind for 5 seconds.
If you want to surrender, don't reach for a gun. Very simple. (Also, don't run a roadblock. Or swagger around with firearms while declaring you will never surrender...)
I'll just restate what he wrote in his book:
Quote:
We should be free to make stupid choices if we want and then be allowed to experience the full weight of those choices.
Finicum believed in the soverign sheriff movement (or whatever its called). A lot of these people believe the county sheriff is the topmost law officer, whose authority supersedes all other law enforcement, whether it be city, state or federal.
LaVoy was so intent on driving to John Day because the Sheriff of Grant county, Glenn Palmer, is (or was) an outspoken law officer who is sympathetic to the Oathkeepers and the other threepers. Finicum was sure Palmer would give him and the rest in his truck protection from the OSP and the FBI. None of the occupiers were getting anything from the Sheriff in Carney county.
Since doing that would be unlawful, I seriously doubt Palmer would have done it Even a blowhard Sheriff wouldn't break the law with so much national attention going on.
When Finicum learned just a few minutes earlier that the first OSP troopers weren't willing to shoot him, even though he taunted them for about 5 minutes, I think he believed he would get away with it twice when he got out of the truck after it became stuck in the snowbank.
Reaching for a weapon 3 times while continuing to taunt the second group of troopers, seconds after he nearly ran over one of them, was pure, double-distilled stupidity.
Finicum had a death wish. He got what he wanted.
If he had wanted to live, all he had to do was get out, put his hands up, and wait for directions. Any fool knows that. That was exactly what Ryan Bundy did a few minutes later, along with both the women who followed, and none of them were injured or shot.
Sheriff Palmer was another supporting voice for the militants, what was the point in facilitating a meeting with this group that was armed and had taken over federal property. He is up for reelection assuming he doesn't face charges for his actions, a prior sheriff is running against him. He also believes that Sandy Hook was a conspiracy to take away guns and has been very outspoken, he also met with some militants at his office in early January.
So many different parts to this event, out of state militias, congressmen, radio talk show hosts that it defies logic. Some still have doubts to what took place with all the history, and videos and they still don't believe their own eyes and ears. Imagine if there was no visual evidence.
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