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Old 06-07-2016, 07:25 PM
 
Location: Middle of nowhere
24,260 posts, read 14,214,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJersey View Post
He was drunk too, no? Maybe he did not even realize as much.
Two guys riding by on bikes notices that she was unconscious, but the guy on top of her couldn't?
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Old 06-07-2016, 07:26 PM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,980 posts, read 14,568,805 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinawina View Post
All this "what was she drinking? What was she wearing? Who has she slept with before?" type stuff obscures the fact that rape is simply party 1 having sex with party 2 when party 2 did not or could not consent. The end. Nothing she did forced him to rape her. Even if they did kiss (no proof they did), at the point she passed out he was supposed to stop. He did not. He raped her. The end.

Exactly. What is terrifying is how many posters struggle to understand this simple point. What are they teaching their children? And more importantly how are they handling grey situations in their private lives?
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Old 06-07-2016, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Middle of nowhere
24,260 posts, read 14,214,925 times
Reputation: 9895
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJersey View Post
She said in her own statement that she was rubbing his back. She couldn't have been that unconscious.
She said that he said that she was rubbing his back so he thought she was enjoying it. He also changed his story after he found out that she didn't remember anything that happened. So I would take his statement that she did anything with a grain of salt.
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Old 06-07-2016, 07:37 PM
 
29,521 posts, read 22,668,047 times
Reputation: 48243
I wouldn't pay too much attention getting riled up by the dissenters on this thread. They know damned well if what happened to this woman happened to their daughter, there would be no flimsy excuses or defenses on an internet forum, their thoughts would be consumed with getting vengeance on the scumbag who perpetrated this vile act of RAPE.

Anyways I urge everyone to read this letter, it is very powerful and it is very courageous of her to speak for ALL women who have experienced the double injustice and shame, degradation, and humiliation of not only the rape, but the way the system seeks to blame the victim and put her name through the mud.

Read the Stanford Rape Victim

Quote:
The next thing I remember I was in a gurney in a hallway. I had dried blood and bandages on the backs of my hands and elbow. I thought maybe I had fallen and was in an admin office on campus. I was very calm and wondering where my sister was. A deputy explained I had been assaulted. I still remained calm, assured he was speaking to the wrong person. I knew no one at this party. When I was finally allowed to use the restroom, I pulled down the hospital pants they had given me, went to pull down my underwear, and felt nothing. I still remember the feeling of my hands touching my skin and grabbing nothing. I looked down and there was nothing. The thin piece of fabric, the only thing between my vagina and anything else, was missing and everything inside me was silenced. I still don’t have words for that feeling. In order to keep breathing, I thought maybe the policemen used scissors to cut them off for evidence.

Then, I felt pine needles scratching the back of my neck and started pulling them out my hair. I thought maybe, the pine needles had fallen from a tree onto my head. My brain was talking my gut into not collapsing. Because my gut was saying, help me, help me.

I shuffled from room to room with a blanket wrapped around me, pine needles trailing behind me, I left a little pile in every room I sat in. I was asked to sign papers that said “Rape Victim” and I thought something has really happened. My clothes were confiscated and I stood naked while the nurses held a ruler to various abrasions on my body and photographed them. The three of us worked to comb the pine needles out of my hair, six hands to fill one paper bag. To calm me down, they said it’s just the flora and fauna, flora and fauna. I had multiple swabs inserted into my vagina and anus, needles for shots, pills, had a Nikon pointed right into my spread legs. I had long, pointed beaks inside me and had my vagina smeared with cold, blue paint to check for abrasions.

After a few hours of this, they let me shower. I stood there examining my body beneath the stream of water and decided, I don’t want my body anymore. I was terrified of it, I didn’t know what had been in it, if it had been contaminated, who had touched it. I wanted to take off my body like a jacket and leave it at the hospital with everything else.

On that morning, all that I was told was that I had been found behind a dumpster, potentially penetrated by a stranger, and that I should get retested for HIV because results don’t always show up immediately. But for now, I should go home and get back to my normal life. Imagine stepping back into the world with only that information. They gave me huge hugs and I walked out of the hospital into the parking lot wearing the new sweatshirt and sweatpants they provided me, as they had only allowed me to keep my necklace and shoes.

My sister picked me up, face wet from tears and contorted in anguish. Instinctively and immediately, I wanted to take away her pain. I smiled at her, I told her to look at me, I’m right here, I’m okay, everything’s okay, I’m right here. My hair is washed and clean, they gave me the strangest shampoo, calm down, and look at me. Look at these funny new sweatpants and sweatshirt, I look like a P.E. teacher, let’s go home, let’s eat something. She did not know that beneath my sweatsuit, I had scratches and bandages on my skin, my vagina was sore and had become a strange, dark color from all the prodding, my underwear was missing, and I felt too empty to continue to speak. That I was also afraid, that I was also devastated. That day we drove home and for hours in silence my younger sister held me.

My boyfriend did not know what happened, but called that day and said, “I was really worried about you last night, you scared me, did you make it home okay?” I was horrified. That’s when I learned I had called him that night in my blackout, left an incomprehensible voicemail, that we had also spoken on the phone, but I was slurring so heavily he was scared for me, that he repeatedly told me to go find [my sister]. Again, he asked me, “What happened last night? Did you make it home okay?” I said yes, and hung up to cry.

I was not ready to tell my boyfriend or parents that actually, I may have been raped behind a dumpster, but I don’t know by who or when or how. If I told them, I would see the fear on their faces, and mine would multiply by tenfold, so instead I pretended the whole thing wasn’t real.

I tried to push it out of my mind, but it was so heavy I didn’t talk, I didn’t eat, I didn’t sleep, I didn’t interact with anyone. After work, I would drive to a secluded place to scream. I didn’t talk, I didn’t eat, I didn’t sleep, I didn’t interact with anyone, and I became isolated from the ones I loved most. For over a week after the incident, I didn’t get any calls or updates about that night or what happened to me. The only symbol that proved that it hadn’t just been a bad dream, was the sweatshirt from the hospital in my drawer.

One day, I was at work, scrolling through the news on my phone, and came across an article. In it, I read and learned for the first time about how I was found unconscious, with my hair disheveled, long necklace wrapped around my neck, bra pulled out of my dress, dress pulled off over my shoulders and pulled up above my waist, that I was butt naked all the way down to my boots, legs spread apart, and had been penetrated by a foreign object by someone I did not recognize. This was how I learned what happened to me, sitting at my desk reading the news at work. I learned what happened to me the same time everyone else in the world learned what happened to me. That’s when the pine needles in my hair made sense, they didn’t fall from a tree. He had taken off my underwear, his fingers had been inside of me. I don’t even know this person. I still don’t know this person. When I read about me like this, I said, this can’t be me, this can’t be me. I could not digest or accept any of this information. I could not imagine my family having to read about this online. I kept reading. In the next paragraph, I read something that I will never forgive; I read that according to him, I liked it. I liked it. Again, I do not have words for these feelings.

It’s like if you were to read an article where a car was hit, and found dented, in a ditch. But maybe the car enjoyed being hit. Maybe the other car didn’t mean to hit it, just bump it up a little bit. Cars get in accidents all the time, people aren’t always paying attention, can we really say who’s at fault.

And then, at the bottom of the article, after I learned about the graphic details of my own sexual assault, the article listed his swimming times. She was found breathing, unresponsive with her underwear six inches away from her bare stomach curled in fetal position. By the way, he’s really good at swimming. Throw in my mile time if that’s what we’re doing. I’m good at cooking, put that in there, I think the end is where you list your extracurriculars to cancel out all the sickening things that’ve happened.

The night the news came out I sat my parents down and told them that I had been assaulted, to not look at the news because it’s upsetting, just know that I’m okay, I’m right here, and I’m okay. But halfway through telling them, my mom had to hold me because I could no longer stand up.

The night after it happened, he said he didn’t know my name, said he wouldn’t be able to identify my face in a lineup, didn’t mention any dialogue between us, no words, only dancing and kissing. Dancing is a cute term; was it snapping fingers and twirling dancing, or just bodies grinding up against each other in a crowded room? I wonder if kissing was just faces sloppily pressed up against each other? When the detective asked if he had planned on taking me back to his dorm, he said no. When the detective asked how we ended up behind the dumpster, he said he didn’t know. He admitted to kissing other girls at that party, one of whom was my own sister who pushed him away. He admitted to wanting to hook up with someone. I was the wounded antelope of the herd, completely alone and vulnerable, physically unable to fend for myself, and he chose me. Sometimes I think, if I hadn’t gone, then this never would’ve happened. But then I realized, it would have happened, just to somebody else. You were about to enter four years of access to drunk girls and parties, and if this is the foot you started off on, then it is right you did not continue. The night after it happened, he said he thought I liked it because I rubbed his back. A back rub.

Never mentioned me voicing consent, never mentioned us even speaking, a back rub. One more time, in public news, I learned that my ass and vagina were completely exposed outside, my breasts had been groped, fingers had been jabbed inside me along with pine needles and debris, my bare skin and head had been rubbing against the ground behind a dumpster, while an erect freshman was humping my half naked, unconscious body. But I don’t remember, so how do I prove I didn’t like it.

I thought there’s no way this is going to trial; there were witnesses, there was dirt in my body, he ran but was caught. He’s going to settle, formally apologize, and we will both move on. Instead, I was told he hired a powerful attorney, expert witnesses, private investigators who were going to try and find details about my personal life to use against me, find loopholes in my story to invalidate me and my sister, in order to show that this sexual assault was in fact a misunderstanding. That he was going to go to any length to convince the world he had simply been confused.

I was not only told that I was assaulted, I was told that because I couldn’t remember, I technically could not prove it was unwanted. And that distorted me, damaged me, almost broke me. It is the saddest type of confusion to be told I was assaulted and nearly raped, blatantly out in the open, but we don’t know if it counts as assault yet. I had to fight for an entire year to make it clear that there was something wrong with this situation.

When I was told to be prepared in case we didn’t win, I said, I can’t prepare for that. He was guilty the minute I woke up. No one can talk me out of the hurt he caused me. Worst of all, I was warned, because he now knows you don’t remember, he is going to get to write the script. He can say whatever he wants and no one can contest it. I had no power, I had no voice, I was defenseless. My memory loss would be used against me. My testimony was weak, was incomplete, and I was made to believe that perhaps, I am not enough to win this. His attorney constantly reminded the jury, the only one we can believe is Brock, because she doesn’t remember. That helplessness was traumatizing.

Instead of taking time to heal, I was taking time to recall the night in excruciating detail, in order to prepare for the attorney’s questions that would be invasive, aggressive, and designed to steer me off course, to contradict myself, my sister, phrased in ways to manipulate my answers. Instead of his attorney saying, Did you notice any abrasions? He said, You didn’t notice any abrasions, right? This was a game of strategy, as if I could be tricked out of my own worth. The sexual assault had been so clear, but instead, here I was at the trial, answering questions like:

How old are you? How much do you weigh? What did you eat that day? Well what did you have for dinner? Who made dinner? Did you drink with dinner? No, not even water? When did you drink? How much did you drink? What container did you drink out of? Who gave you the drink? How much do you usually drink? Who dropped you off at this party? At what time? But where exactly? What were you wearing? Why were you going to this party? What’ d you do when you got there? Are you sure you did that? But what time did you do that? What does this text mean? Who were you texting? When did you urinate? Where did you urinate? With whom did you urinate outside? Was your phone on silent when your sister called? Do you remember silencing it? Really because on page 53 I’d like to point out that you said it was set to ring. Did you drink in college? You said you were a party animal? How many times did you black out? Did you party at frats? Are you serious with your boyfriend? Are you sexually active with him? When did you start dating? Would you ever cheat? Do you have a history of cheating? What do you mean when you said you wanted to reward him? Do you remember what time you woke up? Were you wearing your cardigan? What color was your cardigan? Do you remember any more from that night? No? Okay, well, we’ll let Brock fill it in.

I was pummeled with narrowed, pointed questions that dissected my personal life, love life, past life, family life, inane questions, accumulating trivial details to try and find an excuse for this guy who had me half naked before even bothering to ask for my name. After a physical assault, I was assaulted with questions designed to attack me, to say see, her facts don’t line up, she’s out of her mind, she’s practically an alcoholic, she probably wanted to hook up, he’s like an athlete right, they were both drunk, whatever, the hospital stuff she remembers is after the fact, why take it into account, Brock has a lot at stake so he’s having a really hard time right now.

And then it came time for him to testify and I learned what it meant to be revictimized. I want to remind you, the night after it happened he said he never planned to take me back to his dorm. He said he didn’t know why we were behind a dumpster. He got up to leave because he wasn’t feeling well when he was suddenly chased and attacked. Then he learned I could not remember.

So one year later, as predicted, a new dialogue emerged. Brock had a strange new story, almost sounded like a poorly written young adult novel with kissing and dancing and hand holding and lovingly tumbling onto the ground, and most importantly in this new story, there was suddenly consent. One year after the incident, he remembered, oh yeah, by the way she actually said yes, to everything, so.

He said he had asked if I wanted to dance. Apparently I said yes. He’d asked if I wanted to go to his dorm, I said yes. Then he asked if he could finger me and I said yes. Most guys don’t ask, can I finger you? Usually there’s a natural progression of things, unfolding consensually, not a Q and A. But apparently I granted full permission. He’s in the clear. Even in his story, I only said a total of three words, yes yes yes, before he had me half naked on the ground. Future reference, if you are confused about whether a girl can consent, see if she can speak an entire sentence. You couldn’t even do that. Just one coherent string of words. Where was the confusion? This is common sense, human decency.

According to him, the only reason we were on the ground was because I fell down. Note; if a girl falls down help her get back up. If she is too drunk to even walk and falls down, do not mount her, hump her, take off her underwear, and insert your hand inside her vagina. If a girl falls down help her up. If she is wearing a cardigan over her dress don’t take it off so that you can touch her breasts. Maybe she is cold, maybe that’s why she wore the cardigan.

Next in the story, two Swedes on bicycles approached you and you ran. When they tackled you why didn’t say, “Stop! Everything’s okay, go ask her, she’s right over there, she’ll tell you.” I mean you had just asked for my consent, right? I was awake, right? When the policeman arrived and interviewed the evil Swede who tackled you, he was crying so hard he couldn’t speak because of what he’d seen.
Quote:

And finally, to girls everywhere, I am with you. On nights when you feel alone, I am with you. When people doubt you or dismiss you, I am with you. I fought everyday for you. So never stop fighting, I believe you. As the author Anne Lamott once wrote, “Lighthouses don’t go running all over an island looking for boats to save; they just stand there shining.” Although I can’t save every boat, I hope that by speaking today, you absorbed a small amount of light, a small knowing that you can’t be silenced, a small satisfaction that justice was served, a small assurance that we are getting somewhere, and a big, big knowing that you are important, unquestionably, you are untouchable, you are beautiful, you are to be valued, respected, undeniably, every minute of every day, you are powerful and nobody can take that away from you. To girls everywhere, I am with you. Thank you."
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Old 06-07-2016, 07:42 PM
 
6,393 posts, read 4,117,050 times
Reputation: 8252
I'm still perplexed by this case.

Back in college, I didn't play sports. Sure, I worked out, but my body wasn't anywhere near as fit as the athletes. I wasn't popular, either. I had a group of friends and we hung out. I majored in physics engineering, so I was a total geek.

And I still got plenty of consensual sex. In the gay world, I'm known as a top. I got to have sex with plenty of bottoms. Loved them all.

This Brock dude was an athlete, yes? He probably could get any girl he ever wanted. Why rape a drunk girl?

I just can't get my head around this case.
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Old 06-07-2016, 07:49 PM
 
17,273 posts, read 9,565,470 times
Reputation: 16468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburban_Guy View Post
I wouldn't pay too much attention getting riled up by the dissenters on this thread. They know damned well if what happened to this woman happened to their daughter, there would be no flimsy excuses or defenses on an internet forum, their thoughts would be consumed with getting vengeance on the scumbag who perpetrated this vile act of RAPE.

Anyways I urge everyone to read this letter, it is very powerful and it is very courageous of her to speak for ALL women who have experienced the double injustice and shame, degradation, and humiliation of not only the rape, but the way the system seeks to blame the victim and put her name through the mud.

Read the Stanford Rape Victim
That's great & all but here's what the apologists for the rapist will take away: shrug, she shouldn't have been drinking.

Guaranteed.
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Old 06-07-2016, 08:23 PM
 
1,680 posts, read 1,793,310 times
Reputation: 1342
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Give me a break. Whether you agree with this result or not, one bad outcome does not "stain the teeth of the entire justice system". That is, unless you live a world where you expect everything to come out just perfect.

I don't particularly agree with a six month sentence in this case, but I've tried to a make the point that there is simply no way to take some of the inconsistency out of the judicial system without replacing all the human participants with machines. Than, that result would make large numbers of people unhappy as well.
Poor judgement occurs often, fast and furiously. Possibility I am privy to the judicial infractions or you simply fail to realize them. Either way, sleep well.
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Old 06-07-2016, 08:28 PM
miu
 
Location: MA/NH
17,769 posts, read 40,180,569 times
Reputation: 18106
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefragile View Post
That's great & all but here's what the apologists for the rapist will take away: shrug, she shouldn't have been drinking.

Guaranteed.
I don't think that any of us have been saying that what happened was 100% her fault, I know that I haven't been. However, some of the blame is hers for drinking to the point of unconsciousness. And none of us have been saying that he is 100% blameless either. Geesh.
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Old 06-07-2016, 08:28 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
1,261 posts, read 951,530 times
Reputation: 1468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Town FFX View Post
Just skimming over some of the pages, I seriously can't believe the amount of victim blaming, it is beyond disgusting. I hope none of those posters have daughters.
I'm more worried about the ones who have sons.
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Old 06-07-2016, 08:31 PM
 
Location: Japan
15,292 posts, read 7,763,561 times
Reputation: 10006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinawina View Post
"Alleges" rape? At the point it's just an allegation everything is on the table, and no it's not an "undue burden" to ask relevant questions when investigating what happened.

But if the facts come out and it's rape, well it's rape. If a woman began willingly making out with a guy then after a while indicates she wants to stop, or otherwise taps out (by passing out all together, falling asleep, etc.), and he keeps going, that's actually rape. There's nothing to understand. Nothing to mitigate. There are no "mixed signals". Him being horny does not excuse rape. If he's revved up and mad he has to stop then he has a right to be annoyed. But there is no right to rape. And yes, if you are drunk you are still responsible for rape just like you would be if you crashed your car into a wall or punched a stranger in the face while drunk.
So no difference in level of culpability or appropriate punishments for non-forcible date rape after drinks and consensual foreplay vs. forcible rape of a person out jogging in the park? Should both rapists get 10 years?

Quote:
All this "what was she drinking? What was she wearing? Who has she slept with before?" type stuff obscures the fact that rape is simply party 1 having sex with party 2 when party 2 did not or could not consent. The end. Nothing she did forced him to rape her. Even if they did kiss (no proof they did), at the point she passed out he was supposed to stop. He did not. He raped her. The end.
My understanding is that, by the current thinking, simply being intoxicated makes a woman unable to consent. So how could "what was she drinking" not be relevant?
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