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Maybe so, but it's also funny that it seems the same posters going to great length to defend Brock are also the ones so "outraged" at the rapes and assaults going on in Europe. Wonder what the difference is....
Of all the many thousands of sexual assaults committed by recent immigrants to Europe, I'm sure a few were under circumstances similar to the Brock Turner case, with a drunk victim who doesn't remember what happened, and unclear circumstances making a long prison term hard to justify. If the same thing happened in Germany that happened at Stanford, the same sort of penalty, plus deportation, would be appropriate. But many of the assaults have been far more serious. Gang rapes with extreme violence committed by foreign men have been common in recent years, some as bad or worse than Rolling Stone's fictional two hour rape ordeal on shards of glass at UVA. How could any decent person not be concerned about that?
Dechatelet, I notice that you left out the second part of my statement to my sons about the event: if someone passes out, they must render aid, because at that level of intoxication, it's likely the other person is in the throes of alcohol poisoning. I am teaching my sons that being a decent human being does not mean playing semantics over the meaning of consent. It means that when someone falls unconscious they immediately render aid regardless of the circumstances. The sexplay is DONE even if there was earlier consent.
Although I know where I stand on the defendant's behavior and the outcome of the case, what did or did not transpire between Turner and the woman he is accused of raping was not really the point of the conversation I had with my children, and I'm not interested in arguing about it with you. It was simply a springboard for a conversation our entire family had about underage drinking, the dangers of excessive alcohol consumption, what we believe is our ethical obligation to look out for the welfare of those who cannot look out for themselves, and what to do to aid a person suffering from alcohol poisoning.
Of all the many thousands of sexual assaults committed by recent immigrants to Europe, I'm sure a few were under circumstances similar to the Brock Turner case, with a drunk victim who doesn't remember what happened, and unclear circumstances making a long prison term hard to justify. If the same thing happened in Germany that happened at Stanford, the same sort of penalty, plus deportation, would be appropriate. But many of the assaults have been far more serious. Gang rapes with extreme violence committed by foreign men have been common in recent years, some as bad or worse than Rolling Stone's fictional two hour rape ordeal on shards of glass at UVA. How could any decent person not be concerned about that?
We know that they weren't there when the hanky-panky started.
So there is no way that they can rightfully claim that it wasn't consensual.
You are assuming that the fondling started out as mutual but there is no evidence of that. There is only evidence that Brock fondled the girl who was unconscious when found on top of her. There's no evidence that she consented and no evidence that she was even conscious when things began.
We know that her sister left her an hour prior and at that point, she (victim) had not had any interaction with Brock at the party, although he did try to kiss the sister and others, out of the blue, without any conversation during the party. We know that she called and left a very drunk message on her boyfriend's phone, 45 minutes prior to being found in the alley. Thirty minutes prior to being found she called her sister and her sister told her to call back because she couldn't understand what she was saying.
In Brock's initial talk with police he claimed that there was no conversation between himself and the victim at all. Maybe he tried his favorite move on her, the random kiss out of the blue after she was blacked out without conversation and it worked? Who knows? No matter what, even if it began with mixed signals and mutual consent with a very drunk girl that he didn't know, it should have ended when she passed out. It didn't. If the Swedes could tell that she was unconscious from afar, then Brock certainly could as well. He may have been drunk but he wasn't that drunk when he was found. He was said to be alert and clearly agile enough to try to run off and speak clearly to the police after getting caught.
You are assuming that the fondling started out as mutual but there is no evidence of that. There is only evidence that Brock fondled the girl who was unconscious when found on top of her. There's no evidence that she consented and no evidence that she was even conscious when things began.
We know that her sister left her an hour prior and at that point, she (victim) had not had any interaction with Brock at the party, although he did try to kiss the sister and others, out of the blue, without any conversation during the party. We know that she called and left a very drunk message on her boyfriend's phone, 45 minutes prior to being found in the alley. Thirty minutes prior to being found she called her sister and her sister told her to call back because she couldn't understand what she was saying.
In Brock's initial talk with police he claimed that there was no conversation between himself and the victim at all. Maybe he tried his favorite move on her, the random kiss out of the blue after she was blacked out without conversation and it worked? Who knows? No matter what, even if it began with mixed signals and mutual consent with a very drunk girl that he didn't know, it should have ended when she passed out. It didn't. If the Swedes could tell that she was unconscious from afar, then Brock certainly could as well. He may have been drunk but he wasn't that drunk when he was found. He was said to be alert and clearly agile enough to try to run off and speak clearly to the police after getting caught.
Dechatelet, I notice that you left out the second part of my statement to my sons about the event: if someone passes out, they must render aid, because at that level of intoxication, it's likely the other person is in the throes of alcohol poisoning. I am teaching my sons that being a decent human being does not mean playing semantics over the meaning of consent. It means that when someone falls unconscious they immediately render aid regardless of the circumstances. The sexplay is DONE even if there was earlier consent.
Although I know where I stand on the defendant's behavior and the outcome of the case, what did or did not transpire between Turner and the woman he is accused of raping was not really the point of the conversation I had with my children, and I'm not interested in arguing about it with you. It was simply a springboard for a conversation our entire family had about underage drinking, the dangers of excessive alcohol consumption, what we believe is our ethical obligation to look out for the welfare of those who cannot look out for themselves, and what to do to aid a person suffering from alcohol poisoning.
While it may seem like common sense that we recognize a person in trouble, a lot of younger people don't, and further if a guy tries to help a woman now he may be shamed for "white knighting". Men are supposed to ignore women in distress lest they be sexually rejected, or something. Unfortunately with messages like this out there parents do need to talk to their kids about doing the right thing.
While it may seem like common sense that we recognize a person in trouble, a lot of younger people don't, and further if a guy tries to help a woman now he may be shamed for "white knighting". Men are supposed to ignore women in distress lest they be sexually rejected, or something. Unfortunately with messages like this out there parents do need to talk to their kids about doing the right thing.
What? Since when are men being shamed for helping a person in distress? Neither my husband, who is reading this over my shoulder, nor I have ever heard of such a thing. It's certainly never been the case for us. Ignore a person who needs aid? What world do you live in that this is happening?
While it may seem like common sense that we recognize a person in trouble, a lot of younger people don't, and further if a guy tries to help a woman now he may be shamed for "white knighting". Men are supposed to ignore women in distress lest they be sexually rejected, or something. Unfortunately with messages like this out there parents do need to talk to their kids about doing the right thing.
Lots of people commenting in this thread could complicate a rock...
Where are these concerns and issues coming from I wonder. Men might be shamed for "white knighting?"
"Men are supposed to ignore women in distress?"
I know parents and kids are very different just as families are different, children mature at different rates and in different ways, and parents are all too often unfit to be parents, but from where I am sitting..., if you need explain to your kids some of these basics about doing the right thing and/or not doing the wrong thing, you MIGHT have a bigger problem on your hands than you realize...
I agree with the one comment about how children learn from watching their parents, since no doubt "actions speak louder than words." Also no doubt, if parents are abusive or uncaring, the kids are much more likely to follow suit.
There is no real procedure manual for being a good parent. Friends of ours felt it best not to let their kids read "Harry Potter" for fear of the "dark" influence...
Do the best you can, about all we can hope for, and as for a man encountering a woman in distress..., again, we need instruction?
What? Since when are men being shamed for helping a person in distress? Neither my husband, who is reading this over my shoulder, nor I have ever heard of such a thing. It's certainly never been the case for us. Ignore a person who needs aid? What world do you live in that this is happening?
The real one where some of the responses on this thread excuse the rapist as does the judge. Google white knighting and red pill, lots of disgust for women because feminism.
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