Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
That's not really been my experience. In Hong Kong quite a bit of the air pollution in the colony is attributed to the industrial stuff drifting over the border in Guangdong province. Sure it's not as bad as Beijing but still...
Didn't know that. Guangdong's such a big province I guess the air-quality is patchy, maybe the big manufacturing is concentrated in the portion bordering, HK, in NW part as I recall air was fine as I could recall
I have seen the same in statistics from Sweden. I was suprised to see that more chinese are leaving Sweden than coming. I bet we can see similar statistics in other european countries.
This is happening because western countries has seen their standard of living decline, while asian countries have improved. It made a lot sense to stay in europe when their wages was 10 times higher and unemployment was low. Today an university educated person might earn $2000 after taxes in Sweden, while $1000 is normal in China. If you attend a good university, and work in the big cities, then you can earn $2000 after taxes.
Since wages is not a big factor anymore, then they will look at other factors. What they see is that by moving back they are able to get better jobs, they can be with their family, crime rate is lower, it is easier to find a suitable wife/husband, its not that progressive and they will feel more at home. They are going home for the exact same reason westerners often go home after they study/work abroad, many prefer their home countries.
I have seen the same in statistics from Sweden. I was suprised to see that more chinese are leaving Sweden than coming. I bet we can see similar statistics in other european countries.
This is happening because western countries has seen their standard of living decline, while asian countries have improved. It made a lot sense to stay in europe when their wages was 10 times higher and unemployment was low. Today an university educated person might earn $2000 after taxes in Sweden, while $1000 is normal in China. If you attend a good university, and work in the big cities, then you can earn $2000 after taxes.
Since wages is not a big factor anymore, then they will look at other factors. What they see is that by moving back they are able to get better jobs, they can be with their family, crime rate is lower, it is easier to find a suitable wife/husband, its not that progressive and they will feel more at home. They are going home for the exact same reason westerners often go home after they study/work abroad, many prefer their home countries.
That's a great point to make, it's not just that salaries in China have risen so much (especially for those with some skills), it's also that wages in the West-- especially wages in the US, have stagnated so much that there's far less difference between China and the West. 95% of the US has basically had stagnant or even falling wages (in real terms, adjusted for real inflation) for 30 years, so it's hard to attract skilled immigrants when there's such massive inequality and the wages for the tiny elite at the top are so overwhelmingly dictated by nepotism and previous family wealth (which doesn't fit the profile of an ambitious Asian immigrant).
I'd imagine that wages would have to be very much higher in a new country to push someone with skills (and who emigrates for job-specific reasons) to go so far as settle in a new country with all the other costs that implies (leaving family and friends and roots, going somewhere uncertain, potentially higher crime). That just isn't the case anymore, certainly not here in the US. While nominal wages on paper might be higher, US costs of living are also way higher than China, esp for things like healthcare, housing and education, so you don't get as much buying power for the money you make (and the taxes you pay don't really get you anything). Dollars in the bank don't mean much, it's what you can buy for them, and in most of the cities that immigrants come to, costs of living have gotten so insane (look at the house prices around Silicon Valley) that it doesn't make economic sense to stay long term in the US anymore.
Interesting I do see a lot of Americans going to places like Sweden, France and Germany, though seems like to me it's not the salaries themselves so much, but the overall quality of life and being able to avoid worrying about going bankrupt from medical bills, which ruin millions of Americans every year. That peace of mind alone must be worth a lot to people, and to be honest it makes a lot easier to start and run businesses when you don't have all the damn health insurance overhead to worry about. Plus seems like a big fraction of the Americans (as well as Brits, Canadians and Australians to some extent) going to the European mainland are students, since they can go to school without student loans rather than become debt slaves in the US. And then the other quality of life things keep them in Germany, Austria, Spain or Belgium for example-- better health, lower crime, 6 weeks vacation, access to low cost childcare and a pretty good entrepreneurial environment. (Maybe some even go to avoid the crazy US divorce courts, which from my experience seem more sane in Europe, though I doubt that's really a major factor overall)
Still China seems to be developing nicely to have at least these basic safety nets, with low cost of living (at least outside the really major cities, and in general for healthcare) and rising salaries. Seems like a pretty good draw to bring people back there, even non-Chinese looking for opportunities globally.
Without concrete figures substantiating the hypothesis that Asian Americans are returning to Asia, I highly doubt that in reality many Asian Americans are returning to Asia (the choice of word "return" is controversial if the Asian American is 2nd or 3rd generation -- their homes are undoubtedly U.S. in lieu of Asia).
The notion that Asian Americans have barrier like bamboo ceiling is also too generalized. Take an example, Taiwanese-American two times Oscar Best Director Ang Lee broke the bamboo ceiling. Though Lee did direct films in both Taiwan and China, his home base is still in U.S.
In fact, this statement is too generalized. Country by country, I don't see any Japanese Americans returning to Japan or Korean Americans returning to Korea in droves.
If the topic is related to Chinese Americans returning to China, the numbers are even fewer. First of all, migration from China to U.S. was quite a recent phenomenon. There had not been any immigrants from PRC to U.S. until 1978 when both countries established relationship. Since then every year an annual quota of 20,000 was set up (State Department sets another quota for Taiwan of 20,000 and another quota for Hong Kong of 5,600). So even after 38 years when Chinese immigrants from PRC set foot on U.S., their number, including descendants, may be just around 1.5 to 2 million. (Chinese Americans number about 4 millions but that figure includes Chinese immigrants from places outside PRC.)
That number dwarfs the Filipino Americans whose population is about 3.6 million. And do you see any Filipino Americans returning home?
So even assuming all Chinese Americans from PRC return home, it does not represent all Asian Americans follow their footsteps. And given that U.S. economy is in a much healthier shape than PRC's, I wonder if any Chinese Americans, especially the 2nd generation, will really choose that path.
Without concrete figures substantiating the hypothesis that Asian Americans are returning to Asia, I highly doubt that in reality many Asian Americans are returning to Asia (the choice of word "return" is controversial if the Asian American is 2nd or 3rd generation -- their homes are undoubtedly U.S. in lieu of Asia).
Agree, that's why I used term "migrate" instead of return in the title, many of them born in the US especially have a home in America and so they're more migrating rather than returning, which if anything makes it even more interesting and surprising that so many Asian-Americans do seem to be heading to Asia, even those with very remote ties
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Lee
The notion that Asian Americans have barrier like bamboo ceiling is also too generalized. Take an example, Taiwanese-American two times Oscar Best Director Ang Lee broke the bamboo ceiling. Though Lee did direct films in both Taiwan and China, his home base is still in U.S.
Sorry to respond at length but that's a thoughtful point that touched on something I've been thinking about for awhile. Ang Lee's a very good counter-example, but I feel like this might be a case where exception may sort-of prove the rule since Ang Lee is virtually the only example of such an Asian director who's been awarded as such. Despite a large number of other extremely talented Asian directors, working in the USA or Asia or Europe, who've never received much recognition despite almost universal and long sustained acclaim for their work. As an esp egregious example, look at the case of Akira Kurosawa, yes he did eventually get lifetime achievement award but this is the infamous "consolation prize", when the various film academies and awarding agencies realize they've snubbed a director so outrageously that they've made a mockery of their own awards system by denying such recognition to a genius. (The French to their credit, did award Kurosawa the big prize at Cannes) The only "defense" of the snubs against Kurosawa and other Asian directors is that the Academy Awards have basically become a laughingstock (as someone with relatives in the industry I hear this a lot), so it's not like it's just a problem for Asian-Americans alone. Even the voting members in candid interviews admit the Oscars are basically all in-group politics, aka. the specific studios and producers with the money and connections scratching each other's backs for favors, and the fact that mediocre (at best) films like Ordinary People (vs. Raging Bull? seriously?), Crash, Shakespeare in Love, The King's Speech and Out of Africa (!!!) have gotten Best Picture in recent years (and this is even before we get to the other award shows), vs. other films that have become classics standing test of time, just show how beyond ridiculous the awards season has gotten.
But this also OTOH backs up the original point, after all with the awards basically flowing largely from the internal politics of the in-group elite, the near shut-out of Asian-Americans (for virtually all awards shows and for all kinds of other opportunities) just reaffirms the harsh reality of the bamboo ceiling. In fact of all professions I see Asian-Americans going to Asia for, showbiz is one of the most common, after all the film and entertainment industries throughout Asia are booming. Not only are my kids, nieces and nephews manga and anime fans but so are many of their parents and grandparents (I've been caught up in the Pokemon Go craze I'll admit it sheepishly) and China's already overtaking the US in a lot of areas of the film industry. Part of the issue may be that the US Asian communities are so diverse that the way they express this drive to seek opportunity in Asia will take different forms without a single common term to express it. I think I'm reasonably plugged in to current events and zeitgeist terms, but I only heard of "bamboo ceiling" recently probably because most of the Asian-Americans in my family are Filipino-American and Vietnamese-American, and I've never heard them use the term even though it sounds like they're airing many of the same grievances as Chinese-Americans (who it sounds like do use the term a lot more often).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Lee
In fact, this statement is too generalized. Country by country, I don't see any Japanese Americans returning to Japan or Korean Americans returning to Korea in droves.
I'm actually surprised to see you say that cuz Korea, in my experience seems to be one of the countries that Asian-Americans are most prone to migrate to, and it's the one case in particular that I find the most understandable. Of all the international cities I've worked in I can't think of many that come close to comparing to Seoul in terms of sheer excitement, energy, nightlife and opportunity, with fortunes being made all over the place yet still with (compared to other major cities I've been in) very affordable costs of living. And whenever I go to Seoul, more than any other city in Asia, I'm constantly running into Asian-Americans who've moved there permanently (and plenty of non-Asian Americans too), and not just Korean-Americans. In Texas where I've been for several years, many of the little Koreatowns I used to frequent just up and vanished not because the owners weren't doing well, but because they found better opportunities in Korea. Granted, things like the new Fatca tax laws make it a huge pain for Korean-Americans to work in America (they get penalized for all kinds of dumb administrative reasons based on assets or goods procured in Korea), and as always the broken US healthcare system and crazy housing costs seem to be doing their part to drive a lot of them back to Korea, especially the entrepreneurial ones (the US health care mess and exploding premiums are an absolute catastrophe for anyone trying to start a business). But still, in case of Korea I feel like it's more of a pull factor than a push, seems like one of the coolest places in the world to be getting your career going today. Japan I know less about but I rarely hear about Japanese-Americans coming to the US anyway, seems like they're so high standard of living that there's little immigration from there in general. (Despite all the gloomy headlines in the US the Japanese living standard is very high and they do well with high employment, the GDP is maybe not as high as before but GDP is the most useless statistic economically, tells us nothing about living standards or costs which is all anyone really cares about). And some of the few Japanese-Americans I knew (in Hawaii) have gone to Japan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Lee
If the topic is related to Chinese Americans returning to China, the numbers are even fewer. First of all, migration from China to U.S. was quite a recent phenomenon. There had not been any immigrants from PRC to U.S. until 1978 when both countries established relationship. Since then every year an annual quota of 20,000 was set up (State Department sets another quota for Taiwan of 20,000 and another quota for Hong Kong of 5,600). So even after 38 years when Chinese immigrants from PRC set foot on U.S., their number, including descendants, may be just around 1.5 to 2 million. (Chinese Americans number about 4 millions but that figure includes Chinese immigrants from places outside PRC.)
Good to know those figures, this makes sense from what I can tell, a lot of Chinese in US seem to come from Hong Kong or places like Malaysia. I don't have as much personal contact with this community but I'm constantly running into Chinese-Americans ABC's who are back in China when I got for business there-- it's a big part of the appeal for some of the companies we collab with, having Chinese-American bi-culturals on staff-- and US media is full of articles about the Chinese (and Indian) Americans who are going back to China and India for work, so it seems like there must be enough of it for the big reporters to be taking notice. Though this also may just simply be that the countries are large enough they have a lot of US foreign correspondents to report on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Lee
That number dwarfs the Filipino Americans whose population is about 3.6 million. And do you see any Filipino Americans returning home?
Absolutely yes, several from my own family and I see many examples of this! This in fact is what prompted me to look at this issue more broadly, because as I've found it's not just Chinese, Indian or Korean-Americans going to Asia, where the Asian countries are filled with new and exciting opportunities, it's also a lot of Filipino, Thai and Vietnamese-Americans, where the countries (at least as depicted in the US media) aren't as wealthy or full of opportunities, but there's still a lot of reverse migration anyway. This is what's most interesting, cuz it looks like the attracting factor goes beyond just economies at least as seen on surface, there must be a lot of factors drawing them to those countries (or pushing them out of the US for ex).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Lee
So even assuming all Chinese Americans from PRC return home, it does not represent all Asian Americans follow their footsteps. And given that U.S. economy is in a much healthier shape than PRC's, I wonder if any Chinese Americans, especially the 2nd generation, will really choose that path.
That's a good question, but I think a big part of why there is so much of this return migration is that the US economy really isn't in a very healthy shape right now, not for 99+% of the population who don't have a lot of inheritance money or tons of family connections to count on. Healthcare costs in the USA are insanely high as it is and they're getting even higher every year, to the point where it's becoming nearly impossible to start a business unless you have a ton of capital to start with and lots and lots of good lawyers to help you thru the paperwork. (I personally have dealt with this) And even if you are insured you can still go bankrupt easily from a bad illness or childbirth costs. Plus costs of college in USA put you deep in debt, and there's very little in the way of scholarship money even for top students (except for some athletic and minority scholarships)-- the college debt is a big opportunity cost that does a lot of damage to younger Americans ability to start careers and families, and it's almost unique to the US and (to an extent) England, Canada and Australia. (The healthcare and college costs seem to be a big reason for Americans who move to Europe, though not so sure if they factor in much for moving to Asia, or advanced South American countries like Chile). And housing costs all over the USA are crazy.
So that's why I have doubts that the US economy really is doing well, some parts of it may look good on paper but it's not very good for people in reality-- even high incomes don't mean much if you can't afford good healthcare or housing, or you're constantly in fear of losing your job and foreclosing (H1b visa ironically makes this worse by pushing down US tech wages, including for Asian-Americans). And big majority of Americans aren't making high incomes, they're paycheck to paycheck, no savings, constantly in debt, the new jobs are usually part time or temp with no benefits (so the healthcare costs cause another hit)-- even official GDP and industrial numbers in the US have been absolutely horrible, and the only slightly better economic number (for spending) is mainly just because Americans are being forced to spend so much for healthcare, which isn't a sign of a good economy but costs out of control that Americans are putting on credit cards.
So I'll be honest, I just don't see America right now as an attractive place for skilled immigrants since the country just isn't producing anywhere near enough good jobs to absorb even the native graduating population-- emphasis on good, high-paying jobs that cover healthcare, not the laughable temp "Mcjobs" that always dominate the jobs reports. Even well educated Americans are getting stuck with lousy wages, inaccessible healthcare and very high cost of living even in mid-tier cities. The only way I could see a move to the US being worthwhile is if you get an extremely high paying job offer in Silicon Valley with the salary high enough to save up money after the insane housing costs there, and seems to me like such jobs are very few and far between these days. (For unskilled immigrants, and refugees from warzones in for ex. Somalia or Afghanistan, obviously America offers a much better deal than what they have at home so I can understand why millions of them are coming to the US, but that's a totally different thread that I'm sure has already been covered). For skilled immigrants looking for genuine opportunity, the US doesn't have a whole lot of social mobility anymore (compared to Europe for ex.), and it's really not meritocratic-- I don't really mean that in terms of the affirmative action (even though that got a lot of attention at start of threat), it's more the nepotism that's rampant here, which is a problem for all kinds of groups in the US outside the fortunate born-into privilege 0.1%-- including, of course for immigrants. There's just too much extreme inequality and a ridiculous amount of money concentrated in Wall St. hedge fund firms where you really can't get the jobs unless you have some old-money family connections. So for big majority of people, China would likely be a place with better opportunities economically, at least by spending power measures China's already a bigger economy than the US, but what's most important is cost of living in China (at least outside of Shanghai) is a lot more affordable than just about anywhere in the US so your income gets you much farther there. Moving abroad seems like a losing proposition more and more. Maybe somewhere like Germany or Holland, or some parts of Argentina, Brazil or esp. Chile (also fast growing, low cost of living, tons of opportunities) might be good options. But I can't see the US being so attractive anymore unless the political system and economy stop catering to the demands of a tiny entrenched crony capitalist elite and instead open up opportunities for lots of good paying jobs with manageable cost of living (especially healthcare) for population in general
Without concrete figures substantiating the hypothesis that Asian Americans are returning to Asia, I highly doubt that in reality many Asian Americans are returning to Asia (the choice of word "return" is controversial if the Asian American is 2nd or 3rd generation -- their homes are undoubtedly U.S. in lieu of Asia).
The notion that Asian Americans have barrier like bamboo ceiling is also too generalized. Take an example, Taiwanese-American two times Oscar Best Director Ang Lee broke the bamboo ceiling. Though Lee did direct films in both Taiwan and China, his home base is still in U.S.
In fact, this statement is too generalized. Country by country, I don't see any Japanese Americans returning to Japan or Korean Americans returning to Korea in droves.
If the topic is related to Chinese Americans returning to China, the numbers are even fewer. First of all, migration from China to U.S. was quite a recent phenomenon. There had not been any immigrants from PRC to U.S. until 1978 when both countries established relationship. Since then every year an annual quota of 20,000 was set up (State Department sets another quota for Taiwan of 20,000 and another quota for Hong Kong of 5,600). So even after 38 years when Chinese immigrants from PRC set foot on U.S., their number, including descendants, may be just around 1.5 to 2 million. (Chinese Americans number about 4 millions but that figure includes Chinese immigrants from places outside PRC.)
That number dwarfs the Filipino Americans whose population is about 3.6 million. And do you see any Filipino Americans returning home?
So even assuming all Chinese Americans from PRC return home, it does not represent all Asian Americans follow their footsteps. And given that U.S. economy is in a much healthier shape than PRC's, I wonder if any Chinese Americans, especially the 2nd generation, will really choose that path.
Hear, hear!
And as a 2nd generation Chinese American who DID go (I said "go", not "return") to Asia for work, and came back, there are some, but in the greater scheme of things and the context, not that many when you compare that with the total population of Asian Americans.
Folks in the entertainment industry who find a niche in the lands of their ancestors (such as Coco Lee, Wang Lee Hom) are notable, but they are few in number in the greater context.
As for immigrants coming to the US - those from HK and Taiwan have pretty much dried up. However, you see a lot of Chinese from PRC, including many affluent ones, who come here for the educational opportunities for their children.
As for immigrants coming to the US - those from HK and Taiwan have pretty much dried up. However, you see a lot of Chinese from PRC, including many affluent ones, who come here for the educational opportunities for their children.
Yes true, but Chinese students going abroad to study, very common throughout the world, is very different case than taking the much more extreme step of uprooting themselves from home, friends and family, and moving overseas to a very different country and staying there. I just don't see much of the second case happening anymore, even those who do, there are more and more articles like the ones I mentioned earlier, pointing out how even Chinese who've been resident in the US are going back more and more, even the so called ABC's. It's one thing to go abroad to study at a foreign university-- that's just a short stay visa. But going abroad to try to stay and work is much much harder and a whole different situation, and that's not happening nearly as much anymore. My industry is one of those that's basically relied on skilled immigrants, and there's been a sea change over the past 20-30 years. When I was starting my career it was very common for immigrants from Asia and elsewhere to come and stay in the US for work, family and career, but that's far less common now-- not only has the media been reporting on this a lot, but it's been apparent to those of us working in skilled and tech industries, which is really where the classic sociological question comes up of whether it's pull factors back in Asia, push factors out of America or both. There's just mounting evidence that the US economy as a whole isn't all that attractive anymore, even to US-born Americans-- too many jobs are low-wage and incomes in the US just aren't keeping up with costs of living. And healthcare in the US is an expensive, epic mess-- this is a big part of what's driving even US-born Americans (esp. entrepreneurs) to some of the stronger parts of Europe. When it comes to returning foreign graduates, who started as students and stayed in the US for few years, there was an article on this in Chronicle of Higher education recently that pointed out, not only are new Chinese students heading back home after finishing school in the US (as is normal and customary with the visa), but even many graduates who did try to stay in the US for few years are heading back home in massively growing numbers. (Again this I guess is the sea-turtle term or whatever nickname they had for it).
It's that second group that's actually of most interest since this gives a picture of what the USA's actual economy is like, as opposed to just coming oveseas to take classes, which is a simple short stay visa and totally distorts (and confuses) the immigration numbers. After all Chinese students going overseas for school and returning is common throughout the world, not only US-- the student angle is something my company's looked at and the global picture's really amazing. Chinese and Indian students for ex. are also by far the largest or nearly largest foreign student groups in Germany, Russia, Canada, Japan, France, Australia, Belgium, Netherlands, other European countries, even more and more some parts of South America these days like Chile and Ecuador-- so the presence of so many Chinese students at American universities isn't at all unusual, it's just the drive for overseas experience and educational opportunities. Whereas staying and working in US just doesn't have the allure it once had, so it's reasonable to suspect this might be a true "push" factor to go with whatever "pull" factors are drawing people back to Asia.
To give a simple comparison in terms of immigration figures, the United States now has millions of refugees, asylum grants and family visas given to immigrants from Somalia, Pakistan, Venezuela, El Salvador, Haiti, Honduras, Ethiopia, Sudan, Iraq and Afghanistan. (Somalis and Haitians for ex. are some of the fastest growing immigrant groups in the USA and not just in Minnesota or in Florida). These groups have an extremely low return rate-- almost all of them stay long-term in the USA, and very few come in on student visas. From standpoint of sociological factors, it would seem fair to say that pull factors for this fast-growing group are extremely low-- their homelands are war zones or hit hard by other disasters and they understandably don't want to go back, it's not even an option for them. Whereas a well-educated Chinese or Indian, for example, not only has family and friends back home, but also (in the case of US born Chinese who may not have such deep roots) has the appeal of a rising and fast growing economy, booming in many sectors, strong culture and most importantly, rising wages and still (outside of Shanghai) fairly low costs of living, the pull factors. Whereas in the US these days, they're facing stagnant or even falling incomes while cost of living keeps going up, health care costs keep rising to outrageous higher levels and bankrupt even educated successful people for ex. costs of having a kid, housing and college tuition drain your savings away (at least in Germany of France you can go to school almost for free and have low-cost health care), low social mobility, taxes in most of USA are also very high in spite of it (esp for business owners) we're stuck with a broken obsolete two party system with hated candidates all owned by crony-capitalists who won't fix the healthcare or college mess, and many US cities where the jobs are are also high crime or flat out dangerous (Chicago, LA, St Louis, recently Milwaukee too), the push factors.
So that's the difference. A Somali, Venezuelan or Afghan coming as a refugee to the US doesn't really have the option of going back home to a war zone, so there are very low pull factors and not enough of a push factor in the US to make them consider, which is why almost all of them stay in the US when they get here. Whereas an educated, smart and ambitious Chinese or Indian at least has realistic options for career success and social mobility back home (or in a third country like Germany or France), which is why more and more are leaving, even US-born according to the news reports about it.
Last edited by Corascant; 08-21-2016 at 02:10 PM..
Health insurance in U.S., if you get a good plan, is better than any medical plans you are entitled to in Europe or Canada. For example, the PPO plan that our family has, covers 80% of the medical expenses not only in U.S. but worldwide. When I travel, I just buy the minimum travel insurance which covers emergency medical evacuation.
Each time I see a doctor overseas, I just get the bill and receive 80% and sometimes up to 100% reimbursement from my insurance carrier after I file the claim.
Most government jobs, Federal and State, as well as many big corporations, offer subsidized PPO plans to their employees.
In college, there are still plenty of merit scholarship. In fact, my daughter graduated from an Ivy League School which covered her four years' expense, tuition and room and board, all included.
If the student is smart enough, most colleges still offer plenty of scholarship as well as financial aid nowadays.
Why do most foreign students return to their home country after graduating in U.S.?
Plain simple. Even if they can find a job, it is well nigh impossible for them to stay put in U.S. Most employers find it too much humbug to go through the tedious procedure to retain a foreign student as an employee.
Most Chinese students who graduate in foreign countries do not return to China because there is a better job prospect. Those with a bachelor degree can only get a job with monthly pay of less than RMB 5,000 (US$750). Half of those with Master degree also receive monthly income at this level.
Anyway, grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.
Health insurance in U.S., if you get a good plan, is better than any medical plans you are entitled to in Europe or Canada. For example, the PPO plan that our family has, covers 80% of the medical expenses not only in U.S. but worldwide. When I travel, I just buy the minimum travel insurance which covers emergency medical evacuation.
Each time I see a doctor overseas, I just get the bill and receive 80% and sometimes up to 100% reimbursement from my insurance carrier after I file the claim.
Most government jobs, Federal and State, as well as many big corporations, offer subsidized PPO plans to their employees.
But this is the essential problem with US health insurance system, it's so scatter-shot it's very difficult to "get a good plan", it depends on far too many factors that are often outside a person's control. I've had a number of friends and colleagues who had wonderful plans for awhile, then wound up getting charged higher amounts for poorer networks and worse service when they changed jobs or started their businesses. Engineering is notorious for this, there's a lot of turnover and a lot of jobs get shipped overseas, and so people once flying high for many years with great insurance wind up with outrageously expensive COBRA (at best) or often something far worse. Even many who think they have "good insurance" wind up finding otherwise when they actually get sick. An old classmate of mine wound up hospitalized with supposedly great insurance, which sounded a whole lot like yours as you described it, but owed tens of thousands due to a ridiculous tussle between the insurance company and the hospital about what was covered (and what was in network) and what wasn't, and more than a year later it's still not resolved with him fighting to prevent his bills going to collections. It's even worse for Americans having kids, there are all kinds of surprise bills since the docs in the delivery room so often wind up being out of network, and there' s no way to tell. And US health insurance is awful for entrepreneurs-- it's almost impossible to get reliable insurance that won't leave you holding the bag if you get sick or are in an accident.
So I don't see how you can say even good US health insurance can be better than what they have in Europe, esp places like France and Germany. Whenever they get sick there, they get the treatment they need, and nobody goes bankrupt or winds up liquidating tens of thousands of dollars in savings that they could better use for investing in their businesses for example. This is a very big deal for entrepreneurs-- in Europe they can concentrate more on their businesses and not have to worry so much about the constantly changing BS involving their insurance coverage, which makes them more efficient, more focused and keeps their costs down. The peace of mind itself is worth a lot. Whereas business innovators in the US constantly have to deal with all the health insurance stupidity, which is distracting and potentially disastrous financially if you wind up actually needing to use medical care. The health care in Europe is great quality (Americans these days go there for med tourism) and since it costs so much less than the bloat of US healthcare (often less than half), it doesn't even add up to more taxes since there's less US overhead. This I suspect is one reason your insurance can pay for your overseas, it's much less expensive there than the US in general. Whereas millions of Americans in any year are dealing with bankruptcy from medical bills or very high out of pocket costs, including people who had been comfortably middle or upper class since the charges can be so insane (in the hundreds of thousands of dollars for multi day hospitalizations). Whatever the differences in individual cases, US health insurance in general is a mess. It's way too unstable even for people with good jobs and thriving businesses, too time-consuming and distracting, and that's constant threat of financial disaster. This is not only lousing for Americans individually, it also makes our businesses far less competitive compared to startups in Europe who don't have to deal with the health insurance maze and can just instead simply concentrate on their businesses.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
