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I'm posing this question especially to Asian-Americans who've done or considering this, know family or friends doing this or know ex. second-generation "sea-turtles (I think that's the term for the returning Chinese-Aemricans)", Fil-Ams or "kyopo" who've returned to Asia (or are migrating to Asia if born in the US). It's a bit of informal social science research I guess-- I work internationally and based mostly in Europe, where I've seen a steadily increasing stream of Americans (and a trickle of Canadians and Aussies) emigrating to Europe for all kinds of reasons (free-tuition at ex. German or French universities, low-cost health care-- I'll get to that later).
But in my admittedly fewer trips and projects in Asia, I've also noticed a faster and rapidly increasing stream of Asian-Americans (as well as apparently Asian-Australians, Asian-Canadians and Asian-Britons) also going back to the native country where they, or their parents or grandparents were born (or sometimes to other Asian countries with no ancestral ties, which is interesting in itself). For example I recently worked for an American company that did a lot of cross Pacific trading, and when they teamed us up with partners in Asia, our Asian team members were often heavily composed of Asian-Americans who'd up and returned to Asia. I'm honestly curious about the reasons for this, the problem is that, unlike most other countries that put together data on people leaving and do a survey on their reasons, the US Census Dept. doesn't keep any solid stats on the people leaving the US to plant roots in Europe or Asia (or South America). So while there are indications of more and more Asian-Americans (even Asian-Americans born in America) to go back to Asia, it's hard to figure out the exact numbers and reasons b/c the Census doesn't collect the data. But it's clearly happening, the stats in the Asian countries themselves have been reporting larger and larger numbers of Asian-Americans (and Asian-Canadians) coming there, and seems like a lot of news organizations have been reporting on particular cases: Asians Shun American Dream for a Break Back Home Chinese Immigrants Are Fleeing Back To China Because 'The American Dream Is Dead' - Business Insider https://www.rt.com/usa/immigrants-back-india-jobs/
Since I'm in Europe so much, I do hear a lot from the Americans who've moved there and their reasons (short answer-- not going broke from health care or student loans, actually lower taxes and better environment for small business), but I'm fuzzier on why so many Asian-Americans are going back to Asia. I wouldn't quite call it an "exodus of Asian-Americans to Asia" (at least not yet), but the numbers are very high and seem to be rising. Some guesses:
1. Economic opportunities and high wages for low cost-of-living in booming Asian countries. This is the same reason most people migrate anywhere I guess, and I'd presume this also the main motivator for the growing population of Asian-Americans returning to China, India, Korea and other Asian countries (or emigrating to Asia for first time if they're US born). Even with all the hand wringing in a lot of US news media about Asia's slower growth, it's still clearly booming compared to America, and there's a lot of business, social and cultural excitement in Asia that anyone can feel when going there, a lot of talent and innovation. China is now the biggest economy based on spending power measures, and much of Asia dominates in a a lot of industries. Moreover as the birth rate drops so rapidly throughout Asia, there are rapidly increasing skills and labor shortages, fast increasing wages and massive job and businesses opportunities that, naturally, Asians overseas are best placed to take advantage of. Notably I've seen this migrating to Asia by Asian-Americans also occur for smaller Asian countries (ex. Taiwan, Thailand, Sri Lanka) and once-poorer SE Asian countries like Vietnam and the Philippines (disclosure: my family is part Filipino and have seen this first-hand) that have traditionally been emigration countries or (Vietnam) war-torn, but are now wealthier, more confident and more attractive to their overseas compatriots. Taxes and costs in general are reasonably low but seems like the safety net's at least adequate, so they're good places to start businesses.
For any Asian-Americans here who've done or considering moving to Asia-- would you agree the main reason is just economic opportunities?
2. Asian-Americans' frustration about American affirmative action, legacies and nepotism at top schools and firms (seems like Asians get the worst of both worlds here-- no minority boost but no "old money" legacies either). This is a spinning-off from another thread which is part of what prompted me to ask this question, because among both Asian-Americans who've emigrated to China, India, Korea and other formerly-emigration countries, and the ones still in the US and Canada, I've met a huge number expressing frustration about the damage affirmative action causes to Asians' prospects for jobs, business loans and especially school admissions and scholarships in North America, compared to in Asia (where for ex. school admission is more simply meritocratic). I'm just speaking honestly here (because I myself am divided on this topic), but there's hard research on this topic by top US researchers, and it clearly shows that Asian-Americans pay a very heavy price compared to all other groups. Ron Unz in 'Myth of the American meritocracy" documented this in detail showing how pervasive it is, and Thomas Espenshade at Princeton showed that Asians were "penalized" over 400 SAT points (this was on the old SAT with 1600 scale so it's even worse now) and several GPA points compared to other groups,
Same goes for med-school and law-school admissions, many types of jobs, academic grants, scholarships, help for small businesses and other areas. Some of the researchers found that Asians are being shoved aside from not only prestige but hundreds of billions of dollars in extra wealth due to this, and again I gotta be honest here-- I wasn't good enough myself in high school or college to get into a school like Cal Tech or MIT (which seems to be the most meritocratic now, not the Ivy League or Stanford) and I have mixed feelings about AA policy, but I'd be really really steamed if I'd worked as hard as the Asian students do, accomplished what they did and still got turned down from prestigious schools, jobs and scholarships due to affirmative action. Then to add insult to injury, the Supreme Court of the US itself basically just made affirmative action permanent and gave the blessing of the entire legal US system in the recent U Texas case, and considering the Court's ideological makeup (with even some of the former conservatives switching over to support affirmative action), affirmative action in the USA is now stronger than ever before and basically a fundamental part of US policy. So as bad as it already is for Asian-Americans dealing with all the hits from affirmative action, it's about to get a whole lot worse. (And this also happens in Canada and Australia to various extents, favoring "visible" minorities or some term, though I don't know much about those places.) And then on top of that, Asians are also shoved aside due to all the legacies, old-school connections and "development" students at the Ivies and other places (basically kids of very-rich parents, child celebrities, kids of corporate bigwigs and some dumb athletes), so Asians get hit from all sides in the process.
Frustration and bitterness about the unfairness of affirmative action and similar policies is indeed what I hear, especially from a lot of the Asian-Americans who've emigrated from America and gone back to Asia-- some version of "F--- this, if I'm going to get systematically discriminated against in America, might as well make my career back in the home countries where I won't get shafted for being Asian and the economies are booming anyway."
My only question is whether this sentiment is actually a pushing factor for Asian-Americans who leave America to settle back in Asia, or if it's actually less important but comes out as part of general frustration.
3. Health care. Here I confess I know little to nothing about the health care systems in Asian countries, but as someone who's worked both in small businesses and employed or contracted by several companies, I can say that US healthcare costs are an absolute, bankrupting nightmare, even for Americans pulling down big six- or seven-figures salaries and with a lot of savings. The health insurance companies are voracious in the United States, and small businesses and entrepreneurs get hit very hard with all the rising premiums, deductibles and co-pays (and to be clear, this was a problem before and after Obamacare so I don't want this to get hijacked into some dumb political yelling contest about a problem that has much deeper roots than the two parties). Even if Americans are insured, they often go bankrupt from medical bills because some of the facilities or providers in a given clinic or hospital may not be in the network, and you never know esp in an emergency until you get the bill. It's especially dangerous with pregnancies-- if you need a C-section, NICU or extra nursery care, the bill even for insured patients can run into tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars, that's in fact where a lot of US medical bankruptcies occur. For the Americans who've moved to Europe that I talk to, this is a major reason they move out of America and settle in Europe-- they don't have to worry about the US health care insanity anymore, no fear of bankruptcy or losing all their savings, and their overall taxes are actually lower than in US (not so many kinds of taxes in Europe plus lower health care and education costs so more take-home money basically.
From the little I know about health care in Asia (mostly Japan and once in India), seems like it is universal in most countries, often pretty hi-tech, some places single payer bu overall, much much cheaper than the insane costs in the US. This certainly is driving many Americans to Europe and South America, but among Asian-Americans going back to Asia, is this much of a factor attracting them back? (I would imagine it would maybe be for small business entrepreneurs, not sure in general.)
4. Family and friends. This would seem to be an obvious major factor drawing many Asian-Americans back to Asian countries, esp. first generation, but to my surprise I've even talked to some second-generation Asian-Americans (Indians, Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans and esp. Filipinos) who've cited this as a big factor drawing them to Asia. In some cases family members they'd never met before, but seems like the draw of the extended family is stronger for at least some Asian countries that for Americans immigrating to Europe in my experience. Have others seen this too?
5. Favorable visas. Again this is a big draw for many Americans going to Europe-- if you have an Italian or German ancestor for example, or Scandinavia, French, Irish or whatever, you can often get instant citizenship in the EU with all the advantages. (Many emigrants seem to start out in Bulgaria or Hungary for ex. which are easier to migrate to, get resident visa then move to a bigger country like France, Sweden or Netherlands.) My understanding is that China at least, now is offering nice visas to Chinese-Americans, Australians and Canadians to get rapid work and residence permits in China, which I admit sounds attractive. Is this true? And are other countries doing this?
6. Overall quality of life. Again a big draw for the Americans moving back to Europe. Even though the press usually obsesses on economic basketcases like Greece (and I guess now England too), most of central-northern Europe is in solid shape like Asia, business and start-up friendly, innovative and vibrant. In contrary to the usual belief, the taxes there are around the same or lower than in many US states (there aren't so many kinds of taxes there and US property, state and esp small-business self-employed taxes are much higher-- many US small-biz owners lose half their income to taxes, and then still have to cover health care and college tuition costs). So a lot of Americans, especially young professionals, students and entrepreneurs, find places like Netherlands, Germany, France, Nordics or Estonia to be attractive for not only economic opportunities but quality of life. Less stress about health care. 6 weeks of vacation. Cool cities and nightlife. Awesome culture. Is this a big draw for the Asian countries too?
Last edited by Corascant; 06-29-2016 at 05:57 PM..
7. Be considered cool and find a girlfriend/wife. The status of Asian American men in Asian dating markets has to be considerably higher than it is in the United States.
2. Asian-Americans' frustration about American affirmative action, legacies and nepotism at top schools and firms (seems like Asians get the worst of both worlds here-- no minority boost but no "old money" legacies either). This is a spinning-off from another thread which is part of what prompted me to ask this question, because among both Asian-Americans who've emigrated to China, India, Korea and other formerly-emigration countries, and the ones still in the US and Canada, I've met a huge number expressing frustration about the damage affirmative action causes to Asians' prospects for jobs, business loans and especially school admissions and scholarships in North America, compared to in Asia (where for ex. school admission is more simply meritocratic). I'm just speaking honestly here (because I myself am divided on this topic), but there's hard research on this topic by top US researchers, and it clearly shows that Asian-Americans pay a very heavy price compared to all other groups. Ron Unz in 'Myth of the American meritocracy" documented this in detail showing how pervasive it is, and Thomas Espenshade at Princeton showed that Asians were "penalized" over 400 SAT points (this was on the old SAT with 1600 scale so it's even worse now) and several GPA points compared to other groups,
Same goes for med-school and law-school admissions, many types of jobs, academic grants, scholarships, help for small businesses and other areas. Some of the researchers found that Asians are being shoved aside from not only prestige but hundreds of billions of dollars in extra wealth due to this, and again I gotta be honest here-- I wasn't good enough myself in high school or college to get into a school like Cal Tech or MIT (which seems to be the most meritocratic now, not the Ivy League or Stanford) and I have mixed feelings about AA policy, but I'd be really really steamed if I'd worked as hard as the Asian students do, accomplished what they did and still got turned down from prestigious schools, jobs and scholarships due to affirmative action. Then to add insult to injury, the Supreme Court of the US itself basically just made affirmative action permanent and gave the blessing of the entire legal US system in the recent U Texas case, and considering the Court's ideological makeup (with even some of the former conservatives switching over to support affirmative action), affirmative action in the USA is now stronger than ever before and basically a fundamental part of US policy. So as bad as it already is for Asian-Americans dealing with all the hits from affirmative action, it's about to get a whole lot worse. (And this also happens in Canada and Australia to various extents, favoring "visible" minorities or some term, though I don't know much about those places.) And then on top of that, Asians are also shoved aside due to all the legacies, old-school connections and "development" students at the Ivies and other places (basically kids of very-rich parents, child celebrities, kids of corporate bigwigs and some dumb athletes), so Asians get hit from all sides in the process.
Frustration and bitterness about the unfairness of affirmative action and similar policies is indeed what I hear, especially from a lot of the Asian-Americans who've emigrated from America and gone back to Asia-- some version of "F--- this, if I'm going to get systematically discriminated against in America, might as well make my career back in the home countries where I won't get shafted for being Asian and the economies are booming anyway."
My only question is whether this sentiment is actually a pushing factor for Asian-Americans who leave America to settle back in Asia, or if it's actually less important but comes out as part of general frustration.
Just wanted to mention that in regards to this reason, that Asians actually are considered a minority in regards to Affirmative Action policies for hiring/jobs.
Asian American females are also considered in admission based on gender for college admissions. Many times, Affirmative Action in America is portrayed as being all encompassing and as only benefitting black Americans, when in reality it helps females of all genders more than any ethnic group and white American women have been the highest benefactors of AA programs.
AA is also not a factor in all company hiring and only affects those that are either government agencies (government workers and FWIW Asians do receive a preference in government employment) or with companies who work for the government (i.e. federal or state contractors). Other organizations do not have to follow Affirmative Action and even Americans are ignorant to this fact.
On the recent case in Texas, people also are ignoring that only 2 of the class that were admitted to UT were not white. I personally thought that entire case was ridiculous considering the person who sued didn't even have very good academic credentials and if she didn't have any other distinguishing factors, it is silly for her to think that she should get admitted to the school over a minority who was more involved with the same or similar grades.
On the top of the OP, Asian Americans migrating to Asia I feel that it is primarily based on opportunities you mentioned in regards to many countries in Asia seeing a boom.
I grew up in an integrated neighborhood in the Midwest and we had some Asian refugees in my neighborhood primarily from Vietnam. Some of my old friends from the neighborhood have moved "back" to Vietnam (I say "back" because the ones who moved either were not born there or they fled with their families prior to age 4).
The ones I know who moved to Vietnam did so for jobs that paid good money and that had good benefits. It also helped because they were billingual and so were fluent in both Vietnamese and English. One is a teacher at an international school and was not born in Vietnam but wanted to learn more and experience their family's homeland.
All of the ones I know who have moved also said there is less stereotyping of them of course in Vietnam due to them being the majority.
In America, Asians are considered a "model minority" and are stereotyped accordingly. Though the majority of the population don't think it is a big deal since they are seen as "better than" Latinos and black Americans, Asian American experiences in America, and especially for the not as successful Asian minorities (Hmong, Vietnamese, Laotian, Cambodian, etc.) are not all that peachy and shiny as people seem to think it is for Asians as a whole here. I feel that Asian Americans are also discriminated against in softer ways and that the issue of SAT/Affirmative Action in specific colleges is not a huge issue for the majority of Asian Americans, but the daily discrimination they face is. Like Dark mentioned, Asian men are seen in America as docile and are feminized and not very masucline. Asian women are fetishized as sex kittens/porn stars. They wouldn't face this sort of discrimination in Asia.
All of my friends who are Vietnamese American grew up poor and a large amount of their families are still poor. Asian Americans have the fastest growing poverty rates in America and it would make sense that many of them feel that they would have a better quality of life living in Asia where it is cheaper to live and in most of the countries there, they have healthcare that is decent and free, unlike the US. So they have a better quality of life as a result. There is also less wars/political upheaval versus 40 years ago when their families initially immigrated. There is a lot of opportunity in Asia.
Just wanted to mention that in regards to this reason, that Asians actually are considered a minority in regards to Affirmative Action policies for hiring/jobs.
Asian American females are also considered in admission based on gender for college admissions. Many times, Affirmative Action in America is portrayed as being all encompassing and as only benefitting black Americans, when in reality it helps females of all genders more than any ethnic group and white American women have been the highest benefactors of AA programs.
AA is also not a factor in all company hiring and only affects those that are either government agencies (government workers and FWIW Asians do receive a preference in government employment) or with companies who work for the government (i.e. federal or state contractors). Other organizations do not have to follow Affirmative Action and even Americans are ignorant to this fact.
On the recent case in Texas, people also are ignoring that only 2 of the class that were admitted to UT were not white. I personally thought that entire case was ridiculous considering the person who sued didn't even have very good academic credentials and if she didn't have any other distinguishing factors, it is silly for her to think that she should get admitted to the school over a minority who was more involved with the same or similar grades.
On the top of the OP, Asian Americans migrating to Asia I feel that it is primarily based on opportunities you mentioned in regards to many countries in Asia seeing a boom.
I grew up in an integrated neighborhood in the Midwest and we had some Asian refugees in my neighborhood primarily from Vietnam. Some of my old friends from the neighborhood have moved "back" to Vietnam (I say "back" because the ones who moved either were not born there or they fled with their families prior to age 4).
The ones I know who moved to Vietnam did so for jobs that paid good money and that had good benefits. It also helped because they were billingual and so were fluent in both Vietnamese and English. One is a teacher at an international school and was not born in Vietnam but wanted to learn more and experience their family's homeland.
All of the ones I know who have moved also said there is less stereotyping of them of course in Vietnam due to them being the majority.
In America, Asians are considered a "model minority" and are stereotyped accordingly. Though the majority of the population don't think it is a big deal since they are seen as "better than" Latinos and black Americans, Asian American experiences in America, and especially for the not as successful Asian minorities (Hmong, Vietnamese, Laotian, Cambodian, etc.) are not all that peachy and shiny as people seem to think it is for Asians as a whole here. I feel that Asian Americans are also discriminated against in softer ways and that the issue of SAT/Affirmative Action in specific colleges is not a huge issue for the majority of Asian Americans, but the daily discrimination they face is. Like Dark mentioned, Asian men are seen in America as docile and are feminized and not very masucline. Asian women are fetishized as sex kittens/porn stars. They wouldn't face this sort of discrimination in Asia.
All of my friends who are Vietnamese American grew up poor and a large amount of their families are still poor. Asian Americans have the fastest growing poverty rates in America and it would make sense that many of them feel that they would have a better quality of life living in Asia where it is cheaper to live and in most of the countries there, they have healthcare that is decent and free, unlike the US. So they have a better quality of life as a result. There is also less wars/political upheaval versus 40 years ago when their families initially immigrated. There is a lot of opportunity in Asia.
Thanks for that clarification, I wasn't aware of these situations. For admissions I had always thought Asian-Americans females were if anything the hardest-hit group due to over-representation (anecdotal observations plus the Espenshade data), but I guess affirmative action is so common and pervasive across so many US institutions that it might vary from case to case. An interesting I've seen in my own field is the big jump in American affirmative action programs being designed and applied to boost recruitment, admissions and scholarship for Arab-Americans and Muslim-Americans in general. More than one of the contractors we work with have been hiring more and more Muslim-Americans and getting a number of incentives for it, as far as I know this is recent and probably has to do with the fact that Muslims didn't used to be much of the US population, but are now a much more significant component. I guess this would help ex. Asian-Americans from Pakistan and Bangladesh (As well as Middle East and North Africans) but looks like it would make things even worse for most East Asians, SE Asians and South Asians since now, there's yet another affirmative action category that will get preference over most Asians and whites. Though I guess as you're saying maybe it varies from program to program, I imagine the small-biz loan program in particular might have it's own system going.
Thanks for that clarification, I wasn't aware of these situations. For admissions I had always thought Asian-Americans females were if anything the hardest-hit group due to over-representation (anecdotal observations plus the Espenshade data), but I guess affirmative action is so common and pervasive across so many US institutions that it might vary from case to case. An interesting I've seen in my own field is the big jump in American affirmative action programs being designed and applied to boost recruitment, admissions and scholarship for Arab-Americans and Muslim-Americans in general. More than one of the contractors we work with have been hiring more and more Muslim-Americans and getting a number of incentives for it, as far as I know this is recent and probably has to do with the fact that Muslims didn't used to be much of the US population, but are now a much more significant component. I guess this would help ex. Asian-Americans from Pakistan and Bangladesh (As well as Middle East and North Africans) but looks like it would make things even worse for most East Asians, SE Asians and South Asians since now, there's yet another affirmative action category that will get preference over most Asians and whites. Though I guess as you're saying maybe it varies from program to program, I imagine the small-biz loan program in particular might have it's own system going.
Def time to put a stop to ALL affirmative action except for US veterans.
OP, look up the term bamboo ceiling. This is a very common problem for Asian-Americans and feel that moving to Asia would solve this problem. Heck, I'd move to Puerto Rico if the economy wasn't in complete shambles.
So what if some of them are frustrated by discrimination and ceilings on upward mobility.
Welcome to the club. Being a minority in America wasn't meant to be a cakewalk. Deal with it, persevere through it, or take advantage of opportunities elsewhere. At least Asians have that option.
Location: When you take flak it means you are on target
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Because they come here, make money, then go home. I had a friend from Vietnam. Worked for Macy's for about ten years, made some decent money, bought and sold homes too.
Then cashed out about a million dollars and "went home" to build custom homes and started a big tourist business.
Asia is wonderful and it's very understandable that Asian Americans are going back to Asia. OP put a lot of thought into the thread and makes great points. At the end of the day, people want to live where they are comfortable and it feels like home to them.
The government openly and blatantly endorses discrimination against them based on their race. Why stay?
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