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Prior arrest for anger and use of vehicle as a ram at a job he was fired from (minor damage)..
Multiple arrests for obstructing a police officer..one conviction
Lets see theft... more traffic crimes
I wonder what he was thinking this time.....
I must have missed your link to this information. That seems to be pretty pertinent history. Still, I'm having trouble with use of lethal force here. Were I to be interacting with someone like this, hands on plain sight, no weapons visible, OK, so he seems agitated and is gesticulating about, and I drew and shot him, I'm getting arrested. Claims of "fearing for my life" ? Tell it to the judge.
So sorry, but I don't see what makes cops exempt from the same standards in use of lethal force. I'm OK with cases of obvious danger, weapon out, aiming it, shots fired...sure. But citizens defending themselves can, and do, still get arrested, even in such circumstances. Especially in places like CA and NYC etc. Not so with LE. We've seen some pretty bad shoots go down, with officers still cleared. It is frustrating.
I must have missed your link to this information. That seems to be pretty pertinent history. Still, I'm having trouble with use of lethal force here. Were I to be interacting with someone like this, hands on plain sight, no weapons visible, OK, so he seems agitated and is gesticulating about, and I drew and shot him, I'm getting arrested. Claims of "fearing for my life" ? Tell it to the judge.
So sorry, but I don't see what makes cops exempt from the same standards in use of lethal force. I'm OK with cases of obvious danger, weapon out, aiming it, shots fired...sure. But citizens defending themselves can, and do, still get arrested, even in such circumstances. Especially in places like CA and NYC etc. Not so with LE. We've seen some pretty bad shoots go down, with officers still cleared. It is frustrating.
I think you might want to read some of my earlier posts.. they lay out in detail why your statements arent potentially factual.. they are snippets of time... nor do I see a clear inderstanding of use of force up to and including deadly force...
There was a traffic stop
man fled
There was a high speed pursuit... for miles
man didnt pull over
There was a use of force.. a huge use of force..potentially deadly force in a pit manuever
man didnt stop
There was a pursuit termination
there was a altercation or incident depending on whose account you read
Deadly force was used
There was heavy damage to the crusier.. there was damge to the mans car.. we dont know who and when did what
then we learn
the man was deaf
and a good guy by the familys accounts
Now we learn of several obstruction of peace officer charges with other minor arrests..traffic ... theft.. driving his car while angry into an employers car when he got fired.. some he pled guilty to..
I dont know what happened.. and anything any of us say is supposition until ALL the evidence comes out
But for a number of posters.. convicted... me..Ill wait for the evidence... then decide to light the bonfire
Cars are weapons,, hands are weapons.. people get shot for using both
Going out on a limb here.. sounds like he might have had some anger issues...
"Harris was previously found guilty in Connecticut of resisting an officer in 2010, said The Charlotte Observer.
In 2010, in Florida, an interpreter provided sign language for him at a court hearing in which he was “found not guilty of misdemeanor larceny and had a charge of misdemeanor resisting property recovery dismissed,” the newspaper said."
All the facts are in and as you can see - more is coming out. With the current sentiment - if wrong doing is found by the police officer / sheriff - I have no doubt he will do time.
"Harris was previously found guilty in Connecticut of resisting an officer in 2010, said The Charlotte Observer.
In 2010, in Florida, an interpreter provided sign language for him at a court hearing in which he was “found not guilty of misdemeanor larceny and had a charge of misdemeanor resisting property recovery dismissed,” the newspaper said."
All the facts are in and as you can see - more is coming out. With the current sentiment - if wrong doing is found by the police officer / sheriff - I have no doubt he will do time.
Not guilty and charges dismissed? Sounds to me like a dick cop that didn't like him not immediately listening to him.
I think you might want to read some of my earlier posts.. they lay out in detail why your statements arent potentially factual.. they are snippets of time... nor do I see a clear inderstanding of use of force up to and including deadly force...
There was a traffic stop
man fled
There was a high speed pursuit... for miles
man didnt pull over
There was a use of force.. a huge use of force..potentially deadly force in a pit manuever
man didnt stop
There was a pursuit termination
there was a altercation or incident depending on whose account you read
Deadly force was used
There was heavy damage to the crusier.. there was damge to the mans car.. we dont know who and when did what
then we learn
the man was deaf
and a good guy by the familys accounts
Now we learn of several obstruction of peace officer charges with other minor arrests..traffic ... theft.. driving his car while angry into an employers car when he got fired.. some he pled guilty to..
I dont know what happened.. and anything any of us say is supposition until ALL the evidence comes out
But for a number of posters.. convicted... me..Ill wait for the evidence... then decide to light the bonfire
Cars are weapons,, hands are weapons.. people get shot for using both
Going out on a limb here.. sounds like he might have had some anger issues...
I didn't see anything in either article linked by you and another that specifically mentioned they had tried to PIT him. No matter, I'll just go with it. As to whether or not I have a grasp on rules regarding lethal force, I do. A very good one. So, the incidents leading up to the man exiting his car, do, indeed look pretty chaotic. I would have to say that adrenaline was the drug of choice fueling the interaction, at that point.
The situation has changed here, quite dramatically, after being in moving vehicles is no longer a factor. Now, as to the PIT maneuver, yes, the car could be considered a lethal weapon, however, and correct me if I'm wrong here, that move is not intended to be an intentionally lethal tactic. That is, unless the targeted vehicles driver is intentionally using their car as a lethal weapon, that is. But back to the exit point. His vehicle is off the road now, in a private drive. No more danger from either vehicle now. Witnesses say he was fired on "almost immediately" upon him getting out.
Having had a deaf person in my employ for a good stretch, I found that a deaf person can seem very agitated and animated, just in normal circumstances. The guy who worked for me could talk, to a point, but his volume control was (understandably) not so great, and he would be very lively with body language. If you had been around deaf people , you would know its quite normal, and the tonal quality of any speech is a dead giveaway to someone being deaf. Their vocalizations sound lime their comming from underwater. Again, quite understandable.
Now, at the point the shot was fired, is where I'm hanging up here. This is where I REALLY want to hear the troopers take on this. What were the suspects actions, upon getting out, that caused him to fear for his life? What did the suspect, specifically, do at this point, that clinched his decision to put him down? He was contained, not going anywhere. The car is out of play, his hands are in plain sight, and, according to witnesses, he is shot "almost immediately". He's not at bad breath distance from the Trooper, grabbing him by the belt buckle, so hands as weapons isn't a factor, no other weapons are visible, straight to the sidearm? As I said, I REALLY want to see the Troopers report, and the findings of the investigations, which includes, so it is said, an internal and independent look at things. Should be quite telling.
What I can say, with certainty, under the ending circumstances, had it been anyone other than a cop, who fired the fatal shot(s) they would have a LOT of trouble justifying it. Nor would they be on the streets. Making bail wouldn't be too easy either.
They certainly wouldn't be drawing "administrative leave with pay". At any rate, I haven't said anything calling for the Troopers bead. Haven't made guilt an absolute. I am, however, saying this incident is very questionable. And some tough questions need answered. The longer the Dept. stonewalls , the more questionable things start to look.
I suppose the man was blind too or do deaf people not look in rear view mirrors because they can't hear?
I suppose too that being deaf means not knowing to remain in the car when stopped or is there going to be a correlation now that deaf people are also stupid?
I didn't see anything in either article linked by you and another that specifically mentioned they had tried to PIT him. No matter, I'll just go with it. As to whether or not I have a grasp on rules regarding lethal force, I do. A very good one. So, the incidents leading up to the man exiting his car, do, indeed look pretty chaotic. I would have to say that adrenaline was the drug of choice fueling the interaction, at that point.
The situation has changed here, quite dramatically, after being in moving vehicles is no longer a factor. Now, as to the PIT maneuver, yes, the car could be considered a lethal weapon, however, and correct me if I'm wrong here, that move is not intended to be an intentionally lethal tactic. That is, unless the targeted vehicles driver is intentionally using their car as a lethal weapon, that is. But back to the exit point. His vehicle is off the road now, in a private drive. No more danger from either vehicle now. Witnesses say he was fired on "almost immediately" upon him getting out.
Having had a deaf person in my employ for a good stretch, I found that a deaf person can seem very agitated and animated, just in normal circumstances. The guy who worked for me could talk, to a point, but his volume control was (understandably) not so great, and he would be very lively with body language. If you had been around deaf people , you would know its quite normal, and the tonal quality of any speech is a dead giveaway to someone being deaf. Their vocalizations sound lime their comming from underwater. Again, quite understandable.
Now, at the point the shot was fired, is where I'm hanging up here. This is where I REALLY want to hear the troopers take on this. What were the suspects actions, upon getting out, that caused him to fear for his life? What did the suspect, specifically, do at this point, that clinched his decision to put him down? He was contained, not going anywhere. The car is out of play, his hands are in plain sight, and, according to witnesses, he is shot "almost immediately". He's not at bad breath distance from the Trooper, grabbing him by the belt buckle, so hands as weapons isn't a factor, no other weapons are visible, straight to the sidearm? As I said, I REALLY want to see the Troopers report, and the findings of the investigations, which includes, so it is said, an internal and independent look at things. Should be quite telling.
What I can say, with certainty, under the ending circumstances, had it been anyone other than a cop, who fired the fatal shot(s) they would have a LOT of trouble justifying it. Nor would they be on the streets. Making bail wouldn't be too easy either.
They certainly wouldn't be drawing "administrative leave with pay". At any rate, I haven't said anything calling for the Troopers bead. Haven't made guilt an absolute. I am, however, saying this incident is very questionable. And some tough questions need answered. The longer the Dept. stonewalls , the more questionable things start to look.
You questions are relevant and fair
PIT maneuvers are huge uses of force..because of the high potential for injury or death... and way up there in the use of force continuum
Every killing of another is a homicide,, whether you do it or a policeman does it... the law provides for justifiable homicide under a certain set of circumstances.
You as a private citizen do not generally and as a routine course of business with all the authority invested in you as prescribed by the law do not conduct traffic stops for vehicle code violations
The trooper did
A citizen does not generally have any duty to stop for you
The man has to,, but didnt stop for the trooper
You generally do not have the right to chase someone.. especially in a long pursuit
The trooper did
You generally cannot ram someone with your car to stop a pursuit (and by this point we may have a felony fleeing and eluding..but I dont know as none of us are privy to the reports yet)
The trooper does have the authority,, as a matter of fact he may have had to request a higher authority for such a maneuver.. we would have to be authorized by both the on-scene field sergeant AND the station watch commander...
(see pictures of the end of the pursuit and you will see heavy damage to the front end of the trooper's vehicle and moderate front end damage to the mans vehicle) I am very curious how the man's vehicle sustained damage.. did he crash at the end,, or did he crash purposefully at some point using his car
A citizen has the same right as a police officer to resist a battery OR APPARENT battery to their person and can use only that amount of force which is reasonable , necessary, and fully justified by the circumstances. While a citizen may have to retreat before that use of force a policeman does not
Use of force continuum does not mean I have to talk to you,, then use a control hold,, then use a less than lethal weapon,, then a potentially lethal weapon.. then deadly force.. it can go from A to Z and skip everything in between if justified...
I think you are stating is the man was shot immediately,, I mean right now at the end of the pursuit.. that will have to be determined.. right now its just a story.. all germane.. but a story
Lets follow this.. and see how the investigations by several non involved agencies plays out
As far as "stonewalling" I call bunk on that. A department ALWAYS wants the heat off it as quickly as possible BUT.. if they are going to exonerate.. or charge they have to be thorough.. methodical.. factual.. in this incident I bet there will be 100 witnesses with more coming forward each day,, every account will have to be memorialized and investigated for veracity and content.. there will be people who weren't within 100 miles of this incident who will come out of the woodwork because they saw it on the news and want their ten seconds... happens on all high profile news cases.
If the trooper is a "suspect" he will be afforded the same rights as you.. actually perhaps some to a lesser extent because he will as a matter of his job be required to participate in the investigation or be potentially fired.. you as a private citizen do not.. you wouldn't be required to turn over evidence.. he was
His dashcam was taken,,his gun was taken.. his locker was searched his blood was taken his uniform was taken and on and on.. you wouldn't have to comply with any of that.
LOL, liberals like "the police should have realized that the guy was deaf and used sign language."
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