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I agree with you on the blue in regards to general consciousness. I did believe you were speaking from more of a "conscious movement" perspective.
I agree that black Americans today are not as conscious in general about what it means to be black and what "black culture" really is and many attempt to be "color blind" like many whites claim to be, when IMO that is not possible. Basically I think blacks today are trying to get away from being black. They want to be just a person and IMO in this country, that is not possible. If you "look" black, you are going to be perceived to be black and going to endure stereotypes associated with being black and it is silly to try to act like that is not going to happen. IMO, there is no such thing as one "black experience" though. And the "mindset" of the streets IMO is not something that is unique to black Americans either. As I've shared in the thread, I grew up in a very integrated area and whites, Latinos, and Asians in my neighborhood were similar to the black residents in their mindset. Dysfunction is not a "black thing." Selling drugs is not a "black thing." Living in the ghetto is not a "black thing." When black people continue to associate the above with "being black" they are 1 - ignoring our true culture and heritage as a demographic, and 2 - buying into the concept of black inferiority (that we are "worse" than other demographics or have some sort of negative characteristics that are inherent to us as a demographic). For #2, I actually saw a lot of this in metro Atlanta and it was one of the cultural things that I never got used to experiencing. IMO people who exhibit behaviors of #2 are black people who are traditionally racist against their own people (racism, traditionally is believing that someone is superior or inferior based solely on race/ethnicity)
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I can concur with this as well. As a child, I knew I was Black. However, I did not know what that meant. To me that just meant I was darker, had different hair. I never thought of the stereotypes that would come with it. I grew up in areas that were predominantly White. It wasn't until middle school and high school when I had to consider what being Black meant. It was being told "you're Black, but you don't talk like it". It was being called the "N" word. It was living around alot of rednecks, living around some Black persons with the "thug wannabe" person. FWIW, I did grow up in an area with a sizable amount of poor Whites. I saw quite a bit of dysfunction from Whites living in the outskirts of metro Atlanta.
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On your last paragraph, I found it interesting considering that I also lived in metro Atlanta for over a decade. I am also from Ohio and I went to an HBCU. I honestly felt that the culture in Atlanta and southern black culture in general is very different from where I grew up in the Midwest.
I have a cousin who went to an HBCU in Atlanta. It was nice having him in the area. I will have to ask him what that experience is like.
And the culture gap you mention is something I've seen. My father is a Wisconsin native. His outlook on life is different from many Southern blacks he has dealt with. I've grown up in the South, but feel very disconnected from southern culture in many ways. Having a Midwestern father( my mother is from the South) and having spent part of my childhood in the Pacific Northwest has likely played a factor.
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On HBCUs, I admit I did know some students who sold drugs. But ironically, they were not from the hood. So they didn't continue some sort of ghetto lifestyle. They sold "good weed" basically to those students who liked to smoke weed. Many college students, no matter their ethnicity sell drugs. I knew a couple students who did when I went to college in the late 1990s/early 2000s. They were not from poor families and didn't have any sort of street mentality.
Funny you mention drugs. I never knew who sold drugs or where "the good weed" was. I will admit to have smoked a joint in college(roommate gave it to me). I've only met one drug dealer, a White guy.
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On libertarianism and your reference to me trusting government, I don't trust government and I don't trust capitalists. Our current form of society is a mix between the two. Both use each other and both keep each other in check in some form and fashion. Libertarianism, in its purest sense, basically places capitalists in a superior position to government. I don't think either should be in a superior position because both can cause harm to a society if they are allowed to do whatever they want to do or if they are not monitored closely by the populace. I also believe that all people can be racist, no matter their political ideology. I've had more racist interactions with liberals than any other political ideology, primarily because many liberals are under the impression that black people are inferior in some way and always need their "help" when we don't. I am an independent and do not support, in full, any political ideology. But I do fully reject libertarianism. IMO it is basically a mosaic of other political philosophies and many of the tenets of libertarianism exist in liberalism and conservatism.
It is a big paradox for me. On one hand, I like many of the libertarian principles. I am very pro-2nd Amendment. I am in favor of marijuana being legalized. No one should ever been in jail for smoking weed. I'm not against capitalism. I am in favor of making entry into the market easier, in certain ways. I am in favor of certain environment regulations.
It is interesting that you've had more racist interactions with liberal than with conservatives. My life has been the very opposite. I've had more racist interactions with conservatives than liberals. What I have noticed is this. From liberals, I've gotten that paternalist mentality. From conservatives, I've gotten more hostility/stupid comments.
I agree with you on the blue in regards to general consciousness. I did believe you were speaking from more of a "conscious movement" perspective.
I agree that black Americans today are not as conscious in general about what it means to be black and what "black culture" really is and many attempt to be "color blind" like many whites claim to be, when IMO that is not possible. Basically I think blacks today are trying to get away from being black. They want to be just a person and IMO in this country, that is not possible. If you "look" black, you are going to be perceived to be black and going to endure stereotypes associated with being black and it is silly to try to act like that is not going to happen. IMO, there is no such thing as one "black experience" though. And the "mindset" of the streets IMO is not something that is unique to black Americans either. As I've shared in the thread, I grew up in a very integrated area and whites, Latinos, and Asians in my neighborhood were similar to the black residents in their mindset. Dysfunction is not a "black thing." Selling drugs is not a "black thing." Living in the ghetto is not a "black thing." When black people continue to associate the above with "being black" they are 1 - ignoring our true culture and heritage as a demographic, and 2 - buying into the concept of black inferiority (that we are "worse" than other demographics or have some sort of negative characteristics that are inherent to us as a demographic). For #2, I actually saw a lot of this in metro Atlanta and it was one of the cultural things that I never got used to experiencing. IMO people who exhibit behaviors of #2 are black people who are traditionally racist against their own people (racism, traditionally is believing that someone is superior or inferior based solely on race/ethnicity).
On your last paragraph, I found it interesting considering that I also lived in metro Atlanta for over a decade. I am also from Ohio and I went to an HBCU. I honestly felt that the culture in Atlanta and southern black culture in general is very different from where I grew up in the Midwest.
On HBCUs, I admit I did know some students who sold drugs. But ironically, they were not from the hood. So they didn't continue some sort of ghetto lifestyle. They sold "good weed" basically to those students who liked to smoke weed. Many college students, no matter their ethnicity sell drugs. I knew a couple students who did when I went to college in the late 1990s/early 2000s. They were not from poor families and didn't have any sort of street mentality.
On libertarianism and your reference to me trusting government, I don't trust government and I don't trust capitalists. Our current form of society is a mix between the two. Both use each other and both keep each other in check in some form and fashion. Libertarianism, in its purest sense, basically places capitalists in a superior position to government. I don't think either should be in a superior position because both can cause harm to a society if they are allowed to do whatever they want to do or if they are not monitored closely by the populace. I also believe that all people can be racist, no matter their political ideology. I've had more racist interactions with liberals than any other political ideology, primarily because many liberals are under the impression that black people are inferior in some way and always need their "help" when we don't. I am an independent and do not support, in full, any political ideology. But I do fully reject libertarianism. IMO it is basically a mosaic of other political philosophies and many of the tenets of libertarianism exist in liberalism and conservatism.
This is a great post and it begs the question...."What is BLACK culture"? Is black culture defined by things that are exclusive or endemic to blacks? Is it the unique combination (if not exclusive to us), etc? I really do not know. What role does or should African Culture (what we started with as black people) play in the definition of "black culture" or is "black culture" defined as traits, customs, beliefs, behaviors picked up while in America?
On the black men supporting black women dialogue, I'll state that I do agree that black women are more interested in taking advantage of opportunities afforded by the CRM. It is odd to me that this is so since the most well known voices of the movement (from 1865-1965) were black men advocating for opportunities for black men. Oftentimes, I believe that black men will never be satisfied with anything they receive and will always want to advocate socially and politically for more instead of focusing on what was gained and building as men, traditionally are apt to do.
This is my view because black men, I will be blunt, they basically complain the most about everything and especially so when it comes to discussions such as this one in regards to race within the demographic. They also always want an "acknowledgement" of past misdeeds of whites, which IMO is useless or to act like any issue brought up about them is some sort of admonishment about all black men when it is not. It (the acknowledgement) will not do anything to make our demographic better. I am from a family of predominantly men, as shared earlier. I also have a lot of male friends and associates and we have a lot of these sorts of discussions when we get together and it is interesting for me, as a black woman, how many black men from vastly different backgrounds all think that they are the most oppressed people in the country and how they are owed a "collective" apology. I don't get it.
I am really "into" black history and culture. I don't need to wait for a white person to apologize to me, to share and teach our culture and history to black youths or to build an organization or build a better life for my family. It is like back men are waiting for permission to me.
I feel that black men and women will always be at odds about some things as that is the nature of males and females. However, I do agree with cali that we (as black women) will not have our problems solved by marrying white or non-black men. It is hilarious to me that that is frequently cited as an "answer" to our "problems" as black women or that it is brought up in a conversation about the perception from black women that black men basically are only out for complaining about themselves and their issues and wanting us (black women) to "help" them. I think there is a problem of manhood in black America and that it needs to be solved by black men and that black women are not to blame for that issue (at all - and don't get me started on the "feminization of black men" thing that too many men today are trying to complain/blame on black women).
Black men need to stop complaining and blaming IMO. And this is not to say that all of you do. It is just something that frequently happens not only in discussions of black women vs black men but also black men vs America in general. They act like they cannot do anything, that they are powerless and are a perpetual victim and that they have no recourses or no say, not even within their own families. Due to be observing this sort of behavior, I actually understand how non-blacks in America view it this way from a "current events" standpoint since most "black issues" in the media is just a bunch of black people, usually a black man complaining about something and blaming someone for some "black man problem."
As for me, I'm focused on my history and culture. It is important to me to teach our youth both "hood" kids and suburban kids about our culture and our history from a black perspective and using black sources and doing all the above in an interesting, fun, "conscious" fashion. I don't need to marry a white man or have a a white person to apologize to me in order to do this sort of thing. Hell, I like to teach white people the same things so they will stop seeing us as a stereotype. I can do the above because of the successes of the CRM (1865-1965). I have the opportunity to do so. The primary goal of the CRM was "opportunity." I can admit that there are still things that need to be worked on but there have been many more opportunities gained and accomplished that I focus on and actively share with others.
It leaves me with another though. There have been no Generation-Xers in the Presidential office. Generation X was the first generation born and outside of the Jim Crow era. This is the thing about the Baby Boomers. The Baby Boomers should at least let the younger generation take the lead.
The society I was born in was very different from what my father grew up in. He's a baby boomer. He was born during the mid 1950s. In his city, Blacks couldn't buy homes in certain areas of the city. He went to nearly all-Black schools. There were maybe one or two White students who went to the schools he went to. My father was born during Jim Crow but graduated from high school several years after its ending.
I've dealt with racism and bigots from my own generation. However, as Dave Chappelle said, this is pretty much the best I've seen. I'm hoping that things move forward with the millennials. What does sad is that the hate and Jim Crow mindset that was commonplace in the 50s has been passed down. There are those who are still trying to do a last gasp through the next generation.
On this, wanted to note, that many consider Barack Obama (born 1961) to be a Gen X president. Gen X is sometimes viewed as 1961-1981. I am a Gen X, born in 1979. I agree with those decades as being accurate to my generation.
This is a great post and it begs the question...."What is BLACK culture"? Is black culture defined by things that are exclusive or endemic to blacks? Is it the unique combination (if not exclusive to us), etc? I really do not know. What role does or should African Culture (what we started with as black people) play in the definition of "black culture" or is "black culture" defined as traits, customs, beliefs, behaviors picked up while in America?
When I teach about black history and culture, I focus on black America. I do start with a review of West Africa in general, but we, as a demographic, are genetically from various African tribes. Once we got here, we became the same tribe from a social standpoint.
I run a short program on black history and culture and I'm developing a curriculum on this subject that will break out "black culture" specifically and what it entails.
However, "black (American) culture" for me is always American centered and focused, due to the above - that we all became the same tribe in this, our "native land" as referred to by various 19th century black activists. For me, it is important for our people to know about our history here in America because too much of it is skewed. Plus, even though I have nothing against Africa or Africans, generally, Africans do not view us as culturally African, and we are not culturally African. Africa is a huge continent and has millions of cultures. I start the review of our culture from 1600 forward.
I can concur with this as well. As a child, I knew I was Black. However, I did not know what that meant. To me that just meant I was darker, had different hair. I never thought of the stereotypes that would come with it. I grew up in areas that were predominantly White. It wasn't until middle school and high school when I had to consider what being Black meant. It was being told "you're Black, but you don't talk like it". It was being called the "N" word. It was living around alot of rednecks, living around some Black persons with the "thug wannabe" person. FWIW, I did grow up in an area with a sizable amount of poor Whites. I saw quite a bit of dysfunction from Whites living in the outskirts of metro Atlanta.
I have a cousin who went to an HBCU in Atlanta. It was nice having him in the area. I will have to ask him what that experience is like.
And the culture gap you mention is something I've seen. My father is a Wisconsin native. His outlook on life is different from many Southern blacks he has dealt with. I've grown up in the South, but feel very disconnected from southern culture in many ways. Having a Midwestern father( my mother is from the South) and having spent part of my childhood in the Pacific Northwest has likely played a factor.
Funny you mention drugs. I never knew who sold drugs or where "the good weed" was. I will admit to have smoked a joint in college(roommate gave it to me). I've only met one drug dealer, a White guy.
It is a big paradox for me. On one hand, I like many of the libertarian principles. I am very pro-2nd Amendment. I am in favor of marijuana being legalized. No one should ever been in jail for smoking weed. I'm not against capitalism. I am in favor of making entry into the market easier, in certain ways. I am in favor of certain environment regulations.
It is interesting that you've had more racist interactions with liberal than with conservatives. My life has been the very opposite. I've had more racist interactions with conservatives than liberals. What I have noticed is this. From liberals, I've gotten that paternalist mentality. From conservatives, I've gotten more hostility/stupid comments.
On the bold, I've lived mostly in urban cities and liberal neighborhoods and so I've been around liberals more. I also have gotten the paternalist (white savior) attitude a lot from young white liberals in particular, mostly because I was involved in a lot of community endeavors and the nature of my career has made me be in contact with a lot of different liberal groups.
Conservatives also have the paternalist attitudes who are non-black IMO. They do come off at hostile at times, but I have never had them do so in my face, just online. All say stupid comments lol about race. Most of the conservatives who've said some racist things to me were involved with churches and church groups who worked on projects that were active in locations that I managed via work or who helped a community group I volunteered with in metro Atlanta. So they were not hostile.
On this, wanted to note, that many consider Barack Obama (born 1961) to be a Gen X president. Gen X is sometimes viewed as 1961-1981. I am a Gen X, born in 1979. I agree with those decades as being accurate to my generation.
The Census bureau claims that the early 60s babies are Boomers. I disagree with that, considering that the Baby Boom itself very clearly and abruptly ended in 1959. In addition, a number of social factors also change very sharply for children born by the late 50s compared to those born in the early 60s. Those born in the late 50s, for instance, will be just old enough to remember the difference in society pre-CRA and post-CRA.
Obama was a gen-X president, and I'd say in many ways his base racial mentality is closer to being an older Millennial, in that his own upbringing in Hawaii and overseas in "brownlands" had a much different dynamic than that of Mainland blacks (not different from my daughter, who also spent her elementary school years in Honolulu).
What Obama learned about being black in America was essentially what he learned as an adult, making him much more like a Millennial in that mindset than like a black Mainland Boomer or even X-genner.
On this, wanted to note, that many consider Barack Obama (born 1961) to be a Gen X president. Gen X is sometimes viewed as 1961-1981. I am a Gen X, born in 1979. I agree with those decades as being accurate to my generation.
I agree that black Americans today are not as conscious in general about what it means to be black and what "black culture" really is and many attempt to be "color blind" like many whites claim to be, when IMO that is not possible. Basically I think blacks today are trying to get away from being black. They want to be just a person and IMO in this country, that is not possible.
I think it will be possible. In about 25 years, after we Boomers are dead. I'm convinced at this point that Boomers cannot let go of our Jim Crow childhood upbringing. Boomer blacks and Boomer whites are going to be locked until we die in the struggle we were given as children.
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If you "look" black, you are going to be perceived to be black and going to endure stereotypes associated with being black and it is silly to try to act like that is not going to happen.
I do see a difference in the Millennial generation as a whole. I don't think they own those stereotypes as racial stereotypes the way we Boomers do. They just need to realize that we Boomers apparently intend to go out with a bang.
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." -- Martin Luther King
That is what we assented to 50 years ago. We have to be open-eyed about what that result will actually look like. I don't think "African-American" as we have known it until now can survive in that environment.
It comes down to generational studies. The base social science position has always been 1964 by just counting the number of children born compared to the number born yearly during the Great Depression and WWII, but other social scientist with a more historical and sociological approach basically said that if you do not have first hand memory of the JFK and MLK assassinations then you were not a "Baby Boomer" but rather what became known as Generation X. I first read the thesis in the pop sociology book 13th Gen:Abort Retry, Ignore, Fail back in the early 90s but by the time the book was published what the authors were calling the 13th American Generation had already picked up the Generation X label from a novel published in the same period.
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