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You are trying to confuse the issue by talking about Measles and Rubella (German Measles) in the same post.
Chicken Pox? I do not have to go back to the 50's or 60's with that one. Try 1991 a few years before that vax came out. My daughter was 11 and her doctor said she was getting old to be catching. He had heard of a new vaccine for it coming out but he did not think she should wait around for it but for her to find a friend who had it and catch it from her. Party??? No, she just went over for a visit and caught it. Doctor also said for her little sister to catch it from her. This was not the Stone Age times.
So now they are doomed to get Shingles? As I have said before, my now 38 year old daughter says Chicken Pox was no big deal. TODAY it closes schools!. Then kids just stayed home for maybe 5 days, and that was the end of it.
Which brings us to another vaccination for the "deadly, high contagious" shingles, of which only about 25% of the over 60 age group gets. Don't bother to school me on that one. I have seen Pharms commericals, but I have also seen (and touched the rash) on family members, including a 32 year old with it.
Merck wants this suit removed to Federal Court. Legal sites are seeking a Class Action Lawsuit and for injured people to come forward.
So it is not only children being injured, but now old people too, and for a disease that is NOT CONTAGIOUS and no so called Herd Immunity.
Again, pick and choose vaccines. Shingles is not one that can be construed to protect society from a highly contagious deadly disease.
No, Jo, I am not trying to confuse the issue of measles vs German measles. The general public, including newspaper reporters, often confuses German Measles (rubella) and "Hard" measles (rubeola is the scientific name). Some don't even know there are two diseases both called "measles". People haven't gotten rubella since the vaccine came out in 1969. (BTW, it was tested on my nursing class shortly before it came out.) People don't talk about it any more. There are hardly any cases in the US or anywhere in the western hemisphere. Most of these reporters weren't even born then. So they hear about a "measles" party at least 1200 miles away (the distance between LA and Vancouver, BC) and think it's a "hard" measles party. The point is, the LA Times wasn't writing about a measles party in LA.
I disagree with the advice your doctor gave, but it seems to have worked out OK. My kids got cpx in 1992. I was frankly hoping they'd not get it before the vaccine came out. Both were quite sick with it.
I don't give a **** if you get shingles vaccine or not, Jo.
I don't know enough about that particular Merck suit to comment.
I find a lot of these assumptions to be quite strange. I've never heard the "dog whistle" term before. I've seen plenty of name calling on both sides if the issue.
I disagree that there is any intended negative intent in calling someone who gives vaccines a "provider" and I think it's a major leap to take that to assume that those who call people providers are really calling them "shills". Shills are people who are paid to sway public opinion (usually online) in favor or against something all the while pretending to just be a regular old concerned individual. People who give vaccines are doing their job. They are not shills.
Informed consent means that people have the right to be informed about the medication or vaccination including ingredients and side effects that they are being offered and they have the right to refuse if they so choose to. It's not a secret "anti-vaxer" code word for something else. Nor does it imply that the medical provider did not give them the info they wanted or asked for. It just means that people have the right to refuse based on the information about the medicine, vaccine, surgery, etc.
Choice means choice. When someone uses that word it absolutely does not mean that someone chooses to opt out of all. Some do but many others don't.
People do have the right to refuse any or all vaccines. Most states allow exemptions for school. Adults can refuse vaccinations for themselves unless they have a job requirement. Some people (myself included) do want to protect this right to choose.
I'm still confused by the "dog whistles" term. Where did you hear this term? I'm actually confused by much of this post. It makes a lot of assumptions about any individual who dares to question any vaccine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt
Just call me Archimedes! While in the shower, I thought this through. Here's my response, and this is addressed to everyone, not just MissTerri.
First of all, let me say that no one in the health care field objects to anyone questioning vaccines or any other treatment. We (collectively, representing the consensus not each and every individual caregiver) don't even get hysterical if the patient/parent chooses not to get a specific vaccine. We will usually tell you why we think it's a good idea to get a particular vaccine. We will sometimes think privately that you've made a mistake.
It's not whether someone delays/refuses a vaccine or vaccines that makes them an "anti-vaxer" as AnywhereElse so proudly proclaims him/herself to be, and as some others loathe to be called as it points out to others just what their stance is on vaccines. It's the person's attitude towards not just vaccines but also to vaccine providers. Many anti-vaxers think they know more than the people who have spent entire careers studying vaccines, and have come to the consensus of what the vaccine schedule should be. In point of fact, the vaccine schedules for most first-world countries are very similar, and some of the differences are due to different conditions in specific countries. AVs might be surprised to know that the US and the Netherlands are the only two countries in the world never to use the tuberculosis vaccine BCG, even for "high-risk groups". Anti-vaxers call pro-vaccine people, providers and otherwise, "shills" for "Big Pharma". They call them other names as well, as I pointed out above. Any advocacy for vaccines is "fear-mongering", "bullying", "use of scare tactics", etc. The really nasty of them call us "baby killers".
Anti-vaxers also use code words or phrases, also known as "Dog Whistles". These are words or phrases that have a specific meaning to AVs, and "Dog Whistle" means that just as a dog can hear a whistle that humans can't, these terms mean "I'm an anti-vaxer", but I'm not going to say that publicly. Here's a short list of some such terms:
Informed Consent-AVs like to claim vaccines are given without same, when in point of fact, each vaccine requires a Vaccine Information Statement (VIS) to be given to the patient/parent which has more information on it than you'll likely get for a lot of other medical procedures. Example: http://www.immunize.org/vis/mmr.pdf But it's not enough! Oh, no! They want to know every ingredient, active and inactive, how the vaccine was manufactured, every study ever done on the vaccine, etc, etc, etc.
I'm not anti-vax, I'm pro safe vaccines! As if the rest of us are pro-dangerous vaccines? The vaccines in use are very safe, and work is always underway to make them safer.
"Choice", usually meaning the choice to opt out of any/all vaccines.
"Rights" usually meaning the unmitigated right to refuse any/all vaccines in any set of circumstances.
Jill Stein used some of these Dog Whistles during her campaign, when she was pandering to anti-vaxers. I mean, who can be opposed to vaccine safety? Why shouldn't we have 10 bazillion "vaccine safety" committees, led by loons like RFK, Jr to reinvent that wheel many times over.
You are trying to confuse the issue by talking about Measles and Rubella (German Measles) in the same post.
Chicken Pox? I do not have to go back to the 50's or 60's with that one. Try 1991 a few years before that vax came out. My daughter was 11 and her doctor said she was getting old to be catching. He had heard of a new vaccine for it coming out but he did not think she should wait around for it but for her to find a friend who had it and catch it from her. Party??? No, she just went over for a visit and caught it. Doctor also said for her little sister to catch it from her. This was not the Stone Age times.
So now they are doomed to get Shingles? As I have said before, my now 38 year old daughter says Chicken Pox was no big deal. TODAY it closes schools!. Then kids just stayed home for maybe 5 days, and that was the end of it.
Which brings us to another vaccination for the "deadly, high contagious" shingles, of which only about 25% of the over 60 age group gets. Don't bother to school me on that one. I have seen Pharms commericals, but I have also seen (and touched the rash) on family members, including a 32 year old with it.
Merck wants this suit removed to Federal Court. Legal sites are seeking a Class Action Lawsuit and for injured people to come forward.
So it is not only children being injured, but now old people too, and for a disease that is NOT CONTAGIOUS and no so called Herd Immunity.
Again, pick and choose vaccines. Shingles is not one that can be construed to protect society from a highly contagious deadly disease.
We know, your family with its super duper immune system does not think any vaccine preventable disease is a "big deal". You have (repeatedly) told us that your family members had shingles and it was not painful. If you had already had chicken pox, you would not be expected to get it from touching someone's shingles rash.
This mom did not think chicken pox was not a "big deal":
This country will sue over anything. The VIS for Zostavax clearly states it is only about 50% effective in preventing shingles. Not preventing shingles is not the same as causing it. I suspect that the folks who are suing are going to have to show the shingles was from the vaccine virus, not wild virus. The court will also probably kick it over to the vaccine compensation court anyway.
Varicella is contagious. Where did you get the idea it is not? Someone who is not immune to it can get it from contact with the fluid from the blisters of the shingles rash.
Shingles rarely can lead to pneumonia, hearing problems, blindness, brain inflammation (encephalitis) or death. For about one person in five, severe pain can continue even after the rash clears up. This pain is called post-herpetic neuralgia.
Post herpetic neuralgia is the leading cause of suicide in the elderly.
So, yes, shingles can be deadly.
You see, not everyone in the world has Jo's family's absolutely amazing immune system.
What people want is for the medical community to stop lying. What on earth do you expect? Some people will be leery of the medical advice given, and yes, feel like they are taking their chances in an emergency because they have no choice. Most of these mistakes are preventable. I would think this would ring just as true for you as it does for people who don't get vaccinated. Why not, it's preventable.
The medical profession is surrounded by crickets when there is a mistake. We have every right to be as afraid of you as we do cancer and heart disease. It's not because we want you when we want you and bad mouth you when we don't. It's fear, and little choice in the matter. Jo obviously uses alternatives to you when they can. If they can't the take there chances because it's worth the risk. But make no mistake, going to the hospital or doctors office is taking a risk. Going to your office is like smoking, you might come out the other end the victim of a mistake that cost you your health or kill you.
Why not try and understand that^^, and try to change that^^first. It would save more lives than pro vax protesting. Maybe then the very few who don't get vaccinated would trust the medical and pharmaceutical industry enough to get those vaccines.
Through their analysis of four other studies examining death rate information, the doctors estimate there are at least 251,454 deaths due to medical errors annually in the United States. The authors believe the number is actually much higher, as home and nursing home deaths are not counted in that total.
A lot of people don't trust you anymore, they don't trust the pharma industry anymore. Expect that number to grow if you don't fix the reasons why.
If you get that through your head then maybe you try to clean up your reputation a bit. That would do more than calling people names or telling them they are full of nonsense.
Instead, I read through here and just see people in the medical field telling people they are basically stupid for not listening to them. Regardless of the endless posts it just comes down to that.
Looking at the medical systems record, people are pretty much damned if they do and damned if they don't. What you are doing will just increase the likelihood that people will stop vaccinating, stop seeking medical advice when they are ill because after the last few years of news stories on how many mistakes you make we are now an informed public.
You don't really have the room to be snide. Maybe it's time to be understanding, and help fix the flaws in your own backyard. That would convince more people than telling them they are stupid if they don't listen to you.
Agreed, there is a lot of mistrust and often for good reason. A little understanding would go a long way.
All of the parents in my childhood neighborhood got all of the kids together when one of us got chicken pox so that we would all be exposed and get it over with while young. I remember this time clearly. I played outside the entire time I was sick with chicken pox. I took baths at night with baking soda to ease the itching but chicken pox did not slow any of us down and our parents were relieved to have us all get it over with while still kids. It wasn't called a "chicken pox party" but it's the same idea.
This has nothing to do with immunizations. Please start your own thread if you want to talk about medical errors. You have been spamming this thread with your link.
That's rich since nothing you've been talking about has anything to do with the polarization of vaccine debates which is the topic.
I guess you wouldn't recognize when someone on this thread comes on to talk about the topic of it since the topics been lost since page one.
My post illustrates the reason there are a growing number of the anti vax. More people are losing their trust in the medical profession and pharma.
If you look at the really big payments from pharma to physicians they turn out to be for royalties or actual buy out to the rights for a new drug or device. Should a doctor who develops something innovative not be paid for it? Should a physician who teaches other physicians how to use a new drug or device not be compensated for doing that? These days the most a drug rep will do is bring donuts or pizza to the office. They no longer even give away pens or Post-its.
Medical error is not the third leading cause of death in the US. That number comes from a study that defined events that were not mistakes as errors, then estimated the total from a tiny number of patients - Medicare patients at that, who tend to be sicker. They included events that were not preventable. If it was not preventable, how on earth can you call it a mistake? It has been criticized from the time it was published.
It is sad that patients no longer trust their doctors. Without doctors both my son and I would be dead. Without pharma, my family history suggests there is a good possibility I would have had a stroke or a heart attack by now.
The medical system is being proactive in trying to reduce errors. However, classifying non-preventable complications as mistakes in order to allege that medicine is the third largest cause of death in the US is not helpful. Scaring people away from going to the doctor is not helpful, either.
Perhaps using news stories as your primary source of medical information is not making you as informed as you think you are.
The article I sighted shows the medical professionals help hide mistakes made so that they keep their jobs and avoid getting sued.
Your next line just sounds like you are doing the same.
Next time you say "but this is science" "but this is our medical systems advice" think about why that doesn't have a the impact you think it does. Contrary to what you think it's not because you are talking to someone who is stupid. There isn't a growing number of illiterate as you claim. It's because there are a growing number of medical/medicine mistakes being made and a growing number of people who don't trust in their advice.
And yes, it is a sad fact that because of preventable death and injury by the medical profession, people are starting to doubt their doctors advice.
The only cure to this is for the medical profession to start taking responsibility for their mistakes and to try and minimize them as it talks about in the article I posted. That is the only way to gain back trust. They are selling a product in the United States, it's not run by the government here. We are consumers. Keep that in mind.
Last edited by Tokinouta; 04-09-2017 at 03:13 PM..
I find a lot of these assumptions to be quite strange. I've never heard the "dog whistle" term before. I've seen plenty of name calling on both sides if the issue.
I disagree that there is any intended negative intent in calling someone who gives vaccines a "provider" and I think it's a major leap to take that to assume that those who call people providers are really calling them "shills". Shills are people who are paid to sway public opinion (usually online) in favor or against something all the while pretending to just be a regular old concerned individual. People who give vaccines are doing their job. They are not shills.
Informed consent means that people have the right to be informed about the medication or vaccination including ingredients and side effects that they are being offered and they have the right to refuse if they so choose to. It's not a secret "anti-vaxer" code word for something else. Nor does it imply that the medical provider did not give them the info they wanted or asked for. It just means that people have the right to refuse based on the information about the medicine, vaccine, surgery, etc.
Choice means choice. When someone uses that word it absolutely does not mean that someone chooses to opt out of all. Some do but many others don't.
People do have the right to refuse any or all vaccines. Most states allow exemptions for school. Adults can refuse vaccinations for themselves unless they have a job requirement. Some people (myself included) do want to protect this right to choose.
I'm still confused by the "dog whistles" term. Where did you hear this term? I'm actually confused by much of this post. It makes a lot of assumptions about any individual who dares to question any vaccine.
You don't know who Archimedes is? Google him.
Here is the "Urban Dictionary" definition of "Dog Whistle". Urban Dictionary: dog whistle This is used a lot in politics. See the example in the definition. "Neighborhood Schools" usually means opposition to school integration. "Safe vaccines" means "I'm anti-vaccine".
Are you being deliberately obtuse about what I said about name calling? Calling providers names, e.g. "shill", "baby killer", "fear-mongerer", "bully", is in fact name calling!
Do you feel it is your "right" to know every little detail about every medical procedure you might ever have? When I had my hip surgery, I did not get, nor did I feel the need for, information about who made my implant, how it was manufactured, what materials it was made of, etc. Nor did I receive nor want information about what kind of anesthetic I had and what ingredients were in it (probably way worse than anything in vaccines!). Ditto when my husband had his cataract surgeries, he did not get information about any of that stuff, nor when he had his emergency cancer surgery. When my daughter had her cancer surgery, we did not get a whole sh*t-ton of information either. The consent we signed was a 3-4 sentences. A VIS has way more information.
Kennedy reportedly spoke for 20 minutes about the dangers of vaccines, using a slew of studies he claimed proved his beliefs. According to the Washington Post, the environmental activist claims he is not anti-vax, but instead, in favor of “safe vaccines.” "
Agreed, there is a lot of mistrust and often for good reason. A little understanding would go a long way.
Wouldn't it? Even just a little understanding for the 200,000 or so people who've gotten ill advice or injured by a medical professional every year. Some who's lost their parent, sibling or worse their child to a medical error. We've all experienced it, or known someone who had. That is how bad it's gotten. It's a wonder more hasn't been done. But you don't have to wonder why more and more people are going to natural ways of trying to cure themselves. Or trying preventive measures trying to preserve their health so that they can go less.
Last edited by Tokinouta; 04-09-2017 at 03:14 PM..
The article I sighted shows the medical professionals help hide mistakes made so that they keep their jobs and avoid getting sued.
Your next line just sounds lie you are doing the same.
Next time you spew out "but this is science" "but this is our medical systems advice" think about why that doesn't have a the impact you think it does. Contrary to what you think it's not because you are talking to someone who is stupid. There isn't a growing number of illiterate as you claim. It's because there are a growing number of medical/medicine mistakes being made.
And yes, it is a sad fact that because of preventable death and injury by the medical profession, people are starting to doubt their doctors advice.
The only cure to this is for the medical profession to start taking responsibility for their mistakes and to try and minimize them as it talks about in the article I posted. That is the only way to gain back trust. They are selling a product in the United States, it's not run by the government here. We are consumers. Keep that in mind.
Please quit posting about this here or I will report you for being off topic. This has nothing to do with vaccines. You are highjacking the thread!
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