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Here is your post and I bolded where you said it (post #100 in that thread if you want to take a second look):
I missed a word when I wrote that and didn't proofread. No,I don't need for you to diagram the sentence for me. I apologize if I offended you with my error but I did try to clarify and am not interested in arguing about this. Overall, this is all totally irrelevant to the point I was making.
It was normal in NYC back in the 50's when I was a kid, and I did tell you that a DOCTOR recommended catching Chicken Pox for my daughters in 1991 on Long Island. Do you want me to NAME him so you can look it up and verify it?
I believe I do remember you saying that you came from a medical family. Perhaps you had different experiences than the general population even in a very populated area based on your family?
Your posts are the same old same old, especially when others have different experiences that you do. Your's, at your age, aren't the same as everyone else's your own age, including other parents of our generation in fear of these common childhood diseases. Polio maybe, but certainly not measles, mumps, or chicken pox.
Kinda like your friend who says there were Measles Quarantine signs on apartment buildings in the 50's. ROFL Yeah, right. She has no clue what we NYC kids did back in the 50's and 60's, and our parents LET US do. Horror! MEASLES KEEP OUT.
You can fool the younger generation, but you cannot fool your own generation.
You certainly don't read any of my posts for comprehension, Jo. It was my MOTHER who said that about MILWAUKEE in the 1940s, after the war. My mom was a nurse but she didn't work after she got married and moved to Pennsylvania where I grew up. And maybe, just maybe YOUR family was the outlier, not mine or my husband's 1000 miles away in Omaha Nebraska. No one in his family was/is a medical person; his dad was a painter and his mom worked in retail. But DH says he was never invited to a chickenpox party (including being invited over just to "play" when someone had cpx), and his mom would never have let him go to one if he had been invited.
Just why do you have to be so sarcastic, and so nasty personal?
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 04-09-2017 at 09:34 PM..
Doctors are hesitant to discuss "mistakes" because they do not want to lose their livelihoods. What patients perceive as mistakes are most often non-preventable complications. If you want dialog on "medical errors" you need to remove the threat of lottery sized malpractice verdicts.
How could anyone in the health care profession do anything in the way of "retribution"? That just sounds paranoid.
Fear? Fear, uncertainty, and doubt is the very foundation of the anti-vaccination movement, which wants everyone to fear vaccines. For some parents, that works quite well because they have never seen anyone with a vaccine preventable disease. By golly, let a measles outbreak hit their unvaxed community and they get the vaccine lickety split.
As far as vaccines are concerned, there is no educating a (thankfully small but unfortunately growing) hard core group of vaccine refusers. No approach works, and many have been tried. That is similar to the diabetics who perceive the counselling they receive as "scare tactics". To be blunt, diabetes is scary. There is no way to make it not scary. How to you explain to a new diabetic what the complications of diabetes are without "scaring" them? Pat them on the head, say, "Here, honey, just take this pill, do not worry about your blood sugar, everything is going to be just fine"?
Information is only as good as its source. If you avoid any website that ends in .edu or .gov when you do your online "research" about vaccines the chance that you are looking at garbage in and garbage out goes way up.
You misunderstand why I write here. I know there are people posting who will never be convinced by anything I say. They are not my audience. Perhaps with a little thought you might be able to figure out who is.
I am very sincere when I write about vaccines. otherwise I would not do it.
(By golly, let a measles outbreak hit their unvaxed community and they get the vaccine lickety split.)
You might be right about this. But is that a really good way to get those people to vaccinate? I doubt that will happen in the future, I mean it might but not often enough to scare people into vaccinating. Not really effective, more like a payback, or an I told you so. This is what I meant about the way you write. It seems like you have no feeling for actual people, just the cause. I'm sure that's not true, it's just the way you write.
(How could anyone in the health care profession do anything in the way of "retribution"? That just sounds paranoid. )
It's real to a patient. Like you said, doctors might refuse them. They may feel they won't get the best care after they raise questions the doctor doesn't like or complain of an error.
I'm sorry for misunderstanding why you post here. I see you post to advertise to a larger audience. One who might be shopping for vaccine information. May I ask why? Do you have a relative who lost a battle with a VPD? If so, I'm sorry about that if you have.
I don't have an audience I'm trying to reach beyond you. I'm just on cd, talking to you. Maybe that's why you don't sound sincere. It's more understandable now. Thanks for clearing that up.
Last edited by Tokinouta; 04-09-2017 at 10:09 PM..
(By golly, let a measles outbreak hit their unvaxed community and they get the vaccine lickety split.)
You might be right about this. But is that a really good way to get those people to vaccinate? I doubt that will happen in the future, I mean it might but not often enough to scare people into vaccinating. Not really effective, more like a payback, or an I told you so. This is what I meant about the way you write. It seems like you have no feeling for actual people, just the cause. I'm sure that's not true, it's just the way you write.
(How could anyone in the health care profession do anything in the way of "retribution"? That just sounds paranoid. )
It's real to a patient. Like you said, doctors might refuse them. They may feel they won't get the best care after they raise questions the doctor doesn't like or complain of an error.
I'm sorry for misunderstanding why you post here. I see you post to advertise to a larger audience. One who might be shopping for vaccine information. May I ask why? Do you have a relative who lost a battle with a VPD? If so, I'm sorry about that if you have.
I don't have an audience I'm trying to reach beyond you. I'm just on cd, talking to you. Maybe that's why you don't sound sincere. It's more understandable now. Thanks for clearing that up.
Obviously it's a terrible way to get people to vaccinate. No one who is pro-vaccine wants unvaccinated people to be vaccinated because someone in their family got sick. It happens more often than you might think, though.
"I’m writing this from quarantine, the irony of which isn’t lost on me.
Emotionally I’m a bit raw. Mentally a bit taxed. Physically I’m fine. All seven of my unvaccinated children have whooping cough, and the kicker is that they may have given it to my five month old niece, too young to be fully vaccinated."
The author discusses her decision not to vaccinate her kids, which was more of a default result of just deciding not to decide.
"No matter if we vaccinated or not, I thought, it would be nothing more than a coin toss with horrible risks either way."
The Disney measles outbreak made her reconsider.
"I just didn’t trust civic government, the medical community, the pharmaceutical industry, and people in general. By default, I had excluded all research available from any major, reputable organization. Could all the in-house, independent, peer-reviewed clinical trials, research papers and studies across the globe ALL be flawed, corrupt and untrustworthy?"
The whooping cough outbreak in her family happened before she could proceed with her plan to catch the kids up on their shots.
Her essay shows the two fallacies that really underlie many parents' refusal of vaccines. The first is that the choice to vaccinate or not is a "coin toss". No, it's not. The diseases are exponentially more dangerous than the vaccines that prevent them. The other is the trust issue. You have addressed mistrust of medicine in general, which I believe is undeserved and many times due to misinformation - like the totally irresponsible article that says medicine causes a quarter of a million deaths each year. It doesn't. The author points out that she realized that there was no enormous worldwide conspiracy to conceal harm from vaccines. There was no reason for her to distrust what doctors and scientists were saying about the effectiveness and safety of vaccines.
She goes on to say, "Right now my family is living the consequences of misinformation and fear." and apologizes to those families whom her children may have exposed to the disease.
Perhaps it is reasonable for a patient to think a doctor who made what is perceived as a mistake will no longer want to see him. However, why would a doctor want to continue to take care of a patient who did not trust him? That is a problem I see with parents refusing vaccines. How can you say to a pediatrician that you do not trust what he says about vaccines but you believe he is knowledgeable and skilled in every other way to take care of your child? That makes absolutely no sense whatever.
Why would I write here if I had no concern about the people impacted by vaccine preventable diseases? I have grandchildren (the youngest just turned one year old) and great nieces and nephews. I don't want them to get a preventable infectious disease.
Fortunately, I have not lost anyone to a vaccine preventable disease. However, when my older son was on chemotherapy for leukemia we worried about chickenpox. Though he had already had it, immunosuppression increases the risk of getting it again. There were signs on every door at the clinic he went to telling people not to enter if they had chickenpox or had potentially been exposed to it. As it was he did get shingles (on his face and head) and had to be hospitalized and treated with IV medication for it. This was before the vaccine came out, of course.
My parents are from the area in West Georgia near the Little White House and the polio Foundation established with the help of FDR. My dad actually worked at the Foundation for a while and my parents were married at the chapel there. They knew polio up close and personal. You better believe my brother and I got the polio vaccine as soon as it became available.
Parents today just have no concept what vaccine preventable diseases can do, and if vaccination rates drop, they will come back.
I just want those who are wondering about vaccinating to get information from good, scientific sources, starting with their pediatrician or family doctor. Like these:
Children don't ride the subways? Scroll down and you will see a group of private school girls in uniforms riding a subway car. No school buses for students. You are given a mass transit pass to ride the subways or buses to get to school.
Keep your unvaccinated kids away from my unvaccinated kids, or adults? WHO is vaccinated and who isn't? Do they have some contagious disease? Who KNOWS? People squeeze into these subway cars within inches of other faces. The worst is when mothers bring strollers with their babies into this mix. They try to squeeze into these cars too, and people trip all over them.
My family was just an "outlier"? You cannot live in NYC and be terrified of catching a deadly disease. Lock you and you kids up in your apartment and never go out in public where you might (probably WILL) be exposed to some disease? Again, it was also like this back in the 50's. You just live with it, and it was not just MY family. You cannot live your life in fear.
Fear? Fear, uncertainty, and doubt is the very foundation of the anti-vaccination movement, which wants everyone to fear vaccines. For some parents, that works quite well because they have never seen anyone with a vaccine preventable disease. By golly, let a measles outbreak hit their unvaxed community and they get the vaccine lickety split.
What motive could there be to trying to get everyone to fear vaccines? I just don't understand this way of thinking. Individuals make choices for their families based on the available information but what possible motive could there be to try to scare others into not getting vaccinated? There is nothing to be gained from that.
"I’m writing this from quarantine, the irony of which isn’t lost on me.
Emotionally I’m a bit raw. Mentally a bit taxed. Physically I’m fine. All seven of my unvaccinated children have whooping cough, and the kicker is that they may have given it to my five month old niece, too young to be fully vaccinated."
The author discusses her decision not to vaccinate her kids, which was more of a default result of just deciding not to decide.
"No matter if we vaccinated or not, I thought, it would be nothing more than a coin toss with horrible risks either way."
The Disney measles outbreak made her reconsider.
"I just didn’t trust civic government, the medical community, the pharmaceutical industry, and people in general. By default, I had excluded all research available from any major, reputable organization. Could all the in-house, independent, peer-reviewed clinical trials, research papers and studies across the globe ALL be flawed, corrupt and untrustworthy?"
The whooping cough outbreak in her family happened before she could proceed with her plan to catch the kids up on their shots.
Her essay shows the two fallacies that really underlie many parents' refusal of vaccines. The first is that the choice to vaccinate or not is a "coin toss". No, it's not. The diseases are exponentially more dangerous than the vaccines that prevent them. The other is the trust issue. You have addressed mistrust of medicine in general, which I believe is undeserved and many times due to misinformation - like the totally irresponsible article that says medicine causes a quarter of a million deaths each year. It doesn't. The author points out that she realized that there was no enormous worldwide conspiracy to conceal harm from vaccines. There was no reason for her to distrust what doctors and scientists were saying about the effectiveness and safety of vaccines.
She goes on to say, "Right now my family is living the consequences of misinformation and fear." and apologizes to those families whom her children may have exposed to the disease.
Not this lady again. Sorry but she is hardly representative of most parents who make the decision not to vaccinate for this or that. She did zero research of her own and has major trust issues as she claims she doesn't even trust people in general. She excluded all research available from major reputable organizations? That's stupid and certainly not representative of people who make informed choices. I'm sorry but this is woman is kind of a moron and to use her as the example of how "anti-vaxers" make decisions is dishonest. She's an anomaly at best. It's not a decision most people make lightly nor is it a "coin toss" or one that's made without looking at a ton of information, most from what you'd consider to be reputable sources.
I might as well tackle all your recent posts at once, Tokinouta.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokinouta
Pro-vax, Anti-vax? Why so POLARIZED?
^This is the title of this thread^^^^
Go ahead and report me. I'm the one on topic. Medical errors are a reason you have less people trusting in the advice to get vaccines. They try alternatives, and pick certain vaccines. Mostly those who've been studied longer. Why do you think that is?
I get that you don't want to hear it. You've made that clear BUT I belong on here as much as you do. So go ahead, report me. I take your threat seriously. The fact that you have to threaten other posters is a bit scary don't you think? This isn't personal, it's general.
The topic of the forum is "Pro-Vax, Anti-Vax? Why so Polarized?" You have spammed the forum with that link from CNN, which, I hasten to point out, says "Medical errors may be 3rd leading cause of death in U.S. - CNN.com" MAY! Do I need to post the definition for you? In point of fact, there's a whole raft of articles from different media with the same title when you do a Google search. suzy has done a great job of pointing out the problems with that study. You have not brought up one instance of medical error WRT vaccines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokinouta
Lots of people have stories like this. With the internet these people are being heard. When I talk to people who won't vaccinate, this is what they say. They don't trust medicine as much as they use to. The internet has changed a lot of things. What use to be kept secrete and hidden is not anymore. This is good and bad, but I think it has drawn attention to the medical errors and hopefully the medical field will realize reducing them will help others trust again.
"But after all the anger has been vented, and all the fun has been poked at these parents – who are often our patients, friends, neighbors, and even family members – what do we as a medical community do next?
Perhaps we begin to understand the anti-vax movement as but one more symptom of the growing disease of mistrust between patients and physicians in this country. Dr. Sherie Leng recently wrote about this mistrust as she reflected on the horrific murder of Brigham and Women’s cardiovascular surgeon Dr. Michael Davidson by the son of a deceased patient. In Dr. Leng’s words, “It is not just the death of one man that should enrage us. It is the erosion of trust and the decline of basic decency.”
So what part of the anti-vaccination story are we physicians failing to hear? Understandably, a lot of medicine’s response to anti-vaxxers has been the bewildered and frustrated cry, “but why don’t they believe the science?” Science shows us that vaccines don’t cause autism. Science shows us that vaccines are safe.
What we aren’t hearing, however, is that parents are scared and confused. What we aren’t recognizing is the fact that science and medicine sometimes let people down. Sometimes people with debilitating chronic pain are condescendingly brushed off by their physicians. Sometimes families overwhelmed by medical bills are shuffled from bureaucrat to bureaucrat, never given a helpful answer. Sometimes drugs are found to be more toxic than we first thought — think of thalidomide, or Accutane, or Vioxx. Sometimes patients are misdiagnosed, mis- or even maltreated (think of the infamous Tuskegee syphilis experiment, the DSM diagnosis of homosexuality as a disorder or the forced sterilization of people with cognitive disabilities)."
^Great advice^Great Advice^
I'd like to know a little more about these conversations you have with people re: not vaccinating. How do you encounter these people?
KevinMD seems to be fairly well thought of, at least he's not in "The Encyclopedia of American Loons" like some anti-vax doctors, e.g. Joe Mercola, Mehmet Oz, Sherry Tenpenney and others. However, that post of his is a Gish-gallop. I don't get the connection of debilitating chronic pain, thalidomide, or Accutane, or Vioxx to vaccines. Speaking of debilitation chronic pain, Kevin seems not to have gotten the memo about the opioid "crisis", brought up in another post as yet another example of evil health care practitioners. For decades, yea, almost the entirety of my nursing career from 1970-about 2010, we health care professionals were bashed over the head about not treating pain adequately, concerns about addiction were pooh-poohed or even laughed at. So doctors and other prescribers started treating pain more agressively. Now "they" tell us there's an opioid crisis. Speaking of Thalidomide, as suzy said, it was never approved in the US. The US did not have bunch of "Thalidomide babies" like Germany, where it was sold OTC. Thalidomide Stock Photos and Pictures | Getty Images It was also sold in many other countries, yet our FDA gets bashed for being "too slow" to approve drugs. The story of Accutane is not as cut and dried as Kevin likes to think. Three years after Accutane's withdrawal, derms discuss current prescribing practices | Dermatology Times Ditto Vioxx. As far as the Tuskegee study, does Kevin really have to go back that far in history to find some example? Yes, it was awful. No, we'd never do anything like that today, yet. . . the anti-vaxers want us to do just that with their constant yammering for a "vaxed vs unvaxed" study. They want researchers to deliberately withhold a proven intervention to "see what happens". We don't do that stuff any more. It's against the Helsinki Accords. Diagnosis of homosexuality as a disorder has not been the case since 1987. Again, he's digging deep in the archives to find these examples. Society's attitudes towards homesexuality have changed a lot in the last 50 years, particulary I would say the last 30 or so, and has nothing to do with vaccines. "(T)he forced sterilization of people with cognitive disabilities" was a political movement, not medical. "After World War II, public opinion towards eugenics and sterilization programs became more negative in the light of the connection with the genocidal policies of Nazi Germany, though a significant number of sterilizations continued in a few states through the 1970s." It also has nothing to do with vaccines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization
While you think it's "great advice", I'll point out there's no advice at all!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokinouta
From the New England Journal of Medicine: Guilty, Afraid, and Alone - Struggling with Medical Error.
In interviews that our group conducted for a documentary film, patients and families that had been affected by medical error illuminated a number of themes.
Three of these themes have been all but absent from the literature.
First, though it is well recognized that clinicians feel guilty after medical mistakes, family members often have similar or even stronger feelings of guilt.Second, patients and their families may fear further harm, including retribution from health care workers, if they express their feelings or even ask about mistakes they perceive.
You - (They are tired of trying to educate parents with no medical training who think they know more than all of the scientists who develop vaccines and the doctors who administer them. In addition, parents who vaccinate do not want to risk having their children exposed to vaccine preventable diseases at their doctors' offices.
What is happening is that Americans are increasingly science illiterate and willing to accept pseudoscience instead. )
And third, clinicians may turn away from patients who have been harmed, isolating them just when they are most in need.
You- (That mindset is the reason that many doctors are now asking vaccine refusing patients to leave their practices. They are tired of trying to educate parents with no medical training who think they know more than all of the scientists who develop vaccines and the doctors who administer them. ) MMS: Error
(Thalidomide, Accutane, Vioxx, and The Tuskeegee syphilis experiment have nothing to do with vaccines.)
No, it doesn't, but it does have to do with my point which is people lack confidence in medicine, especially after an error, and that creates people leery of vaccination and other medical miracles. It's creates this polarized environment which is harmful to both doctor and patient.
The patient is a large part of the picture. It's not just about the doctor or the scientist. Segregating the patient is how we've gotten here in the first place. I don't think the medical profession can go backwards, and expect blind faith from patients anymore. Not with the information age.
This doesn't only apply to the medical profession, it has more to do with the informational age. MP's just need to get on board. Media plays a large part, and using fear to coerce people doesn't work, it can cause more harm than good.
I share this opinion: More important, research suggests that appeals to fear can cause harm. For example, in a study of patients with type 2 diabetes, patients recognized when their doctors were using scare tactics to motivate compliance, but many said such threats resulted in increased feelings of anxiety, incompetence and negativity towards their physician. Fear-based Medicine: Using Scare Tactics in the Clinical Encounter | THCB
I understand at the core of your arguments is a well meaning message. It's just so hard to see past the surface. Your tactics lack a sense of sincerity that people can clearly see. It might just be the way you write. Maybe that's why you have a hard time convincing people.
Agree with suzy that comments about "retribution" are foolish. I'll also add that you are personally attacking her with the bold. That is supposed to be against the TOS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokinouta
(By golly, let a measles outbreak hit their unvaxed community and they get the vaccine lickety split.)
You might be right about this. But is that a really good way to get those people to vaccinate? I doubt that will happen in the future, I mean it might but not often enough to scare people into vaccinating. Not really effective, more like a payback, or an I told you so. This is what I meant about the way you write. It seems like you have no feeling for actual people, just the cause. I'm sure that's not true, it's just the way you write.
(How could anyone in the health care profession do anything in the way of "retribution"? That just sounds paranoid. )
It's real to a patient. Like you said, doctors might refuse them. They may feel they won't get the best care after they raise questions the doctor doesn't like or complain of an error.
I'm sorry for misunderstanding why you post here. I see you post to advertise to a larger audience. One who might be shopping for vaccine information. May I ask why? Do you have a relative who lost a battle with a VPD? If so, I'm sorry about that if you have.
I don't have an audience I'm trying to reach beyond you. I'm just on cd, talking to you. Maybe that's why you don't sound sincere. It's more understandable now. Thanks for clearing that up.
More attacks. Yet you AVs are always complaining about how "mean" pro-vax people are.
Children don't ride the subways? Scroll down and you will see a group of private school girls in uniforms riding a subway car. No school buses for students. You are given a mass transit pass to ride the subways or buses to get to school.
Keep your unvaccinated kids away from my unvaccinated kids, or adults? WHO is vaccinated and who isn't? Do they have some contagious disease? Who KNOWS? People squeeze into these subway cars within inches of other faces. The worst is when mothers bring strollers with their babies into this mix. They try to squeeze into these cars too, and people trip all over them.
My family was just an "outlier"? You cannot live in NYC and be terrified of catching a deadly disease. Lock you and you kids up in your apartment and never go out in public where you might (probably WILL) be exposed to some disease? Again, it was also like this back in the 50's. You just live with it, and it was not just MY family. You cannot live your life in fear.
Well, thank you for educating me, Jo! See, I can do sarcasm, too! Those are nice pictures, however, some of them are in Japanese/Chinese characters. Do they label the subways like that in NYC?
I am not so out in "flyover country" as you may think. I grew up in a mill town outside of Pittsburgh, which city has about 1/2 the population it had at its peak with the same city limits. Now the population fell due to the steel industry crash, but it hasn't rebounded today due to smaller family sizes for one thing. Less crowded housing IOW. Pittsburgh at one time had a high rate of tuberculosis, due to crowded living conditions. That is one disease whose incidence has dropped due to better living conditions. (One of the big "talking points" of the anti-vax crowd".)
I'm not sure what your point is about kids riding subways. Did I ever say they didn't? ???
What motive could there be to trying to get everyone to fear vaccines? I just don't understand this way of thinking. Individuals make choices for their families based on the available information but what possible motive could there be to try to scare others into not getting vaccinated? There is nothing to be gained from that.
Not this lady again. Sorry but she is hardly representative of most parents who make the decision not to vaccinate for this or that. She did zero research of her own and has major trust issues as she claims she doesn't even trust people in general. She excluded all research available from major reputable organizations? That's stupid and certainly not representative of people who make informed choices. I'm sorry but this is woman is kind of a moron and to use her as the example of how "anti-vaxers" make decisions is dishonest. She's an anomaly at best. It's not a decision most people make lightly nor is it a "coin toss" or one that's made without looking at a ton of information, most from what you'd consider to be reputable sources.
A lot of your anti-vax buddies sell supplements and all sorts of "treatments" to "prevent" and/or "cure" communicable disease. Some are chiropractors who would probably be in favor of vaccines if they could prescribe (and sell) them. You can make way, way more money selling "supplements" to be taken on a continuing basis for ever and ever than you can on vaccines. Dr. Sears has a "cash-only" practice, not dealing with insurance companies so he can charge people an exhorbitant fee for all these visits for those who do vaccines on his looney "spread 'em out" schedule. Plus he probably charges a big mark-up on the vaccines as well, something he couldn't do if he was working through insurance. Sherry Tenpenney sells all kinds of crap, as does Mercola. Ever see a picture of Mercola's mansion? https://www.google.com/search?q=pict...ZxFnk5i6FR3NM: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/joe...quackery-pays/
Title of the article: "Quackery Pays".
The love of money is the root of all evil, MissTerri.
And how did you hear about "this lady"? The link suzy posted is not "mainstream media". I had heard of "this lady" because I do follow a lot of vaccine literature, as I am fully upfront about. But you claim to only follow vaccine issues on CD. Was there are thread about "this lady". I agree it's possible, but I don't remember one. Nor did I ever see anything about "this lady" in the Denver Post or in any of our local media.
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I apologize if I offended you with my error but I did try to clarify and am not interested in arguing about this. Overall, this is all totally irrelevant to the point I was making.
