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It wasn't normal at any time that I'm aware of. It wasn't normal in the 50s, when I was a kid, or any time since. It was certainly not normal in the late 80s/early 90s when my kids were little pre-vaccine.
No, Terri, I'm not going back through all your posts to do that. But your posts are the same old, same old that's in every anti-vax blog, discussion board, what have you. One thing I do remember is that you knew all about William Thompson, the great CDC whistleblower before I even heard of him, and I do acknowledge belonging to some pro-vax groups, e.g. Colorado Children's Immunization Coalition, which does publish a bi-weekly list of immunization news with links to the articles; Boulder County Coalition for Childhood Immunizations; Voices for Vaccines; and I subscribe to one of CD's competitors which has lots of vaccine stories to comment on. You're also usually on these CD threads long before me.
ETA: LOL! I just checked your post above. Yeah, I'm sure these articles, one from 1998, a mere 19 years ago now, and two from 2004, 13 years ago, just showed up on "Google News".
It was normal in NYC back in the 50's when I was a kid, and I did tell you that a DOCTOR recommended catching Chicken Pox for my daughters in 1991 on Long Island. Do you want me to NAME him so you can look it up and verify it?
I believe I do remember you saying that you came from a medical family. Perhaps you had different experiences than the general population even in a very populated area based on your family?
Your posts are the same old same old, especially when others have different experiences that you do. Your's, at your age, aren't the same as everyone else's your own age, including other parents of our generation in fear of these common childhood diseases. Polio maybe, but certainly not measles, mumps, or chicken pox.
Kinda like your friend who says there were Measles Quarantine signs on apartment buildings in the 50's. ROFL Yeah, right. She has no clue what we NYC kids did back in the 50's and 60's, and our parents LET US do. Horror! MEASLES KEEP OUT.
You can fool the younger generation, but you cannot fool your own generation.
That was my experience. I'm not going to lie and say that it was horrible because it wasn't.
For you, it wasn't. What about the rest of the world?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri
Nope. Pretty normal in the 70's to try to get your kids exposed to chicken pox in childhood when it's more of a mild illness.
It may have happened. That does not mean it was "normal".
My parents never deliberately exposed me to anything. I never had mumps, so I got the vaccine before I started college. Does my anecdote counter yours?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokinouta
Lots of people have stories like this. With the internet these people are being heard. When I talk to people who won't vaccinate, this is what they say. They don't trust medicine as much as they use to. The internet has changed a lot of things. What use to be kept secrete and hidden is not anymore. This is good and bad, but I think it has drawn attention to the medical errors and hopefully the medical field will realize reducing them will help others trust again.
"But after all the anger has been vented, and all the fun has been poked at these parents – who are often our patients, friends, neighbors, and even family members – what do we as a medical community do next?
Perhaps we begin to understand the anti-vax movement as but one more symptom of the growing disease of mistrust between patients and physicians in this country. Dr. Sherie Leng recently wrote about this mistrust as she reflected on the horrific murder of Brigham and Women’s cardiovascular surgeon Dr. Michael Davidson by the son of a deceased patient. In Dr. Leng’s words, “It is not just the death of one man that should enrage us. It is the erosion of trust and the decline of basic decency.”
So what part of the anti-vaccination story are we physicians failing to hear? Understandably, a lot of medicine’s response to anti-vaxxers has been the bewildered and frustrated cry, “but why don’t they believe the science?” Science shows us that vaccines don’t cause autism. Science shows us that vaccines are safe.
What we aren’t hearing, however, is that parents are scared and confused. What we aren’t recognizing is the fact that science and medicine sometimes let people down. Sometimes people with debilitating chronic pain are condescendingly brushed off by their physicians. Sometimes families overwhelmed by medical bills are shuffled from bureaucrat to bureaucrat, never given a helpful answer. Sometimes drugs are found to be more toxic than we first thought — think of thalidomide, or Accutane, or Vioxx. Sometimes patients are misdiagnosed, mis- or even maltreated (think of the infamous Tuskegee syphilis experiment, the DSM diagnosis of homosexuality as a disorder or the forced sterilization of people with cognitive disabilities)."
^Great advice^Great Advice^
Doctors talk to parents about vaccines every day. There is a group who are impervious to what doctors tell them. They are absolutely convinced that the stories on the internet and garbage from the anti-vax websites are true and no one can convince them otherwise. Those parents absolutely discount all of the scientific evidence. That mindset is the reason that many doctors are now asking vaccine refusing patients to leave their practices. They are tired of trying to educate parents with no medical training who think they know more than all of the scientists who develop vaccines and the doctors who administer them. In addition, parents who vaccinate do not want to risk having their children exposed to vaccine preventable diseases at their doctors' offices.
What is happening is that Americans are increasingly science illiterate and willing to accept pseudoscience instead.
Your implication is that somehow vaccines are "more toxic" than they are. The risks from the diseases vaccine prevent are massively greater than the risks of the vaccines themselves.
Thalidomide, Accutane, Vioxx, and The Tuskeegee syphilis experiment have nothing to do with vaccines.
By the way, thalidomide was never approved by the FDA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri
I also think vaccine reactions have played a role. If someone's child has had a negative reaction to a vaccine or know someone who has it plays a role in their decision to further vaccinate.
There is also distrust in the "no-fault" system that has been set up to deal with vaccine injured people. You can't sue a vaccine maker for a bad reaction, including death. You have to go through the vaccine court which is quite a process. And even if you make it through a major battle and actually win (very hard to do) no fault will ever be admitted. I did some reading (after participating in another CD thread on this topic) in the last few years about this court and it is crazy. I highly recommend these articles about it.
If someone has a child who has true adverse reaction to a vaccine, that child will have a medical reason not to have any further doses of that vaccine. The difficulty is the "know someone" part. That often gets into hearsay and parents who attribute something to a vaccine that was not caused by the vaccine. Is the fact that your neighbor tells you that her third cousin four times removed took a vaccine and developed a health problem afterwards really a valid reason to not vaccinate your child?
Adverse reactions due to vaccines are due to the way the individual who receives the vaccine handles it. They are not due to a defect in the vaccine. If they were due to a defective vaccine, then we would see a lot more of them than we do. Why should the company that makes the vaccine be held responsible for a reaction that was out of its control? It would be wonderful if we could identify ahead of time who was going to have an adverse reaction. Maybe in the future we will be able to do that. However, such reactions are so rare that there is a very small population to study for common factors that could be tested for before vaccinating everyone. It would also be tremendously expensive to do that.
In addition, why should there not be a requirement that there be evidence that a vaccine truly caused the adverse effect? Should the vaccine fund pay for conditions that are not caused by vaccines just because the condition started after the vaccine was given?
By the way, the serious adverse reactions to vaccines are often the same serious adverse effects due to the diseases they prevent. For example, there is a small risk (1 in a million) of Guillain Barre syndrome after flu vaccine. Influenza infection is also associated with GBS, and the risk is higher with the disease than the vaccine.
That means that if a child has a true serious adverse reaction to a vaccine, he may have had the same reaction to the disease.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48
This is why we have an Opioid Epidemic Epidemic. Not only illegal usage, but physician prescribed. Patient cannot experience pain. Must give drugs to treat that. My elderly husband after hip surgery. Oxycodone for weeks after surgery. Nodding out. DRIVING to work taking that doctor proscribed drug. Are you still in PAIN? Here is another script. Terrified me seeing him like that. I screamed at him that he was becoming an addict. When he did finally stop them, he went through withdrawal even after only a few weeks. Shakes, chills, on and on. He never wanted to go through that withdrawal again. Second, surgery. "Do NOT give that Oxycodone again". But, but, but DOCTOR knows better than YOU?
Once again, another burned experience by medical professionals. TRUST what doctor tells you you need over your own experiences? I thoroughly believe that people need to trust their OWN experiences over what any medical professional says. No doctor can get into another's body to feel what they are feeling. One size does not fit ALL.
All this goes way beyond vaccinations. I/my kids had an adverse reaction to a drug/vaccine but doctor says it is perfectly SAFE so you blindly follow what he says?
Why was your husband driving while impaired? If he did not have pain, why did he keep taking the medication? Did he read the printed material that came with the medication? Prescription drug abuse involve responsibility on the part of the person using the medication, too, you know.
Kat has already explained the difficulty with prescription pain medications. Now we are seeing greater controls on pain meds and people with chronic pain having difficulty getting them. Of course, I guess if no one in your family has a problem with chronic pain, then chronic pain does not exist.
No doctor is going to deliberately give a vaccine to someone who has had an adverse reaction to it. That would be a good way to get sued.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri
I googled the vaccine court special master's name after Suzy commented on something she had said that supposedly "schooled" someone. And that led to the articles about the vaccine court. Totally fascinating by the way. If you haven't read them, please do.
Suzy does not recollect ever having said she "schooled" anyone. Would you provide a link to the post, please?
Not all drugs have Black Box Labels. Cipro does. And for good reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
Adverse reactions due to vaccines are due to the way the individual who receives the vaccine handles it. They are not due to a defect in the vaccine. If they were due to a defective vaccine, then we would see a lot more of them than we do. Why should the company that makes the vaccine be held responsible for a reaction that was out of its control? It would be wonderful if we could identify ahead of time who was going to have an adverse reaction. Maybe in the future we will be able to do that. However, such reactions are so rare that there is a very small population to study for common factors that could be tested for before vaccinating everyone. It would also be tremendously expensive to do that.
Exactly why we should always have the freedom to choose. Not everyone's body will react in the same way to a vaccine or other medication. We are not all perfect clones of one another. People can and do have reactions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
Suzy does not recollect ever having said she "schooled" anyone. Would you provide a link to the post, please?
I didn't say that you said that YOU schooled someone, you commented about someone schooling someone. Anyway, that part of the story is pretty irrelevant as it just led to me googling the person's name and finding a ton of interesting info about the vaccine court and how messed up that whole system is.
Cipro is a very dangerous drug and has caused a lot of damage to people.
Would you please give specific examples of "half truths" in the article I posted? Thank you.
How many people have taken Cipro with no problems? Unless you tell us how many have and how many have not, we do not know whether it has caused "a lot" of damage, do we?
As complications from its use have been identified, indications for its use have been re-evaluated. That's the scientific approach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48
It was normal in NYC back in the 50's when I was a kid, and I did tell you that a DOCTOR recommended catching Chicken Pox for my daughters in 1991 on Long Island. Do you want me to NAME him so you can look it up and verify it?
I believe I do remember you saying that you came from a medical family. Perhaps you had different experiences than the general population even in a very populated area based on your family?
Your posts are the same old same old, especially when others have different experiences that you do. Your's, at your age, aren't the same as everyone else's your own age, including other parents of our generation in fear of these common childhood diseases. Polio maybe, but certainly not measles, mumps, or chicken pox.
Kinda like your friend who says there were Measles Quarantine signs on apartment buildings in the 50's. ROFL Yeah, right. She has no clue what we NYC kids did back in the 50's and 60's, and our parents LET US do. Horror! MEASLES KEEP OUT.
You can fool the younger generation, but you cannot fool your own generation.
The problem is that you believe only your own experiences are valid and those of others are not. My parents did not deliberately expose us to infectious diseases, either. Somehow you believe your experience is "normal" and mine is not.
Perhaps we should say deliberate exposure of children to infectious diseases was not universal.
Heck, why not a few stories! From our generation. Note some of theses folks make some errors about the diseases, but it goes to show not everyone over the age of 65 thinks the way you do.
If you never saw a measles quarantine sign in New York City before the advent of the vaccine I suspect that as a child you just were not observant enough.
"a) It shall be the duty of an attending physician, or a person in charge of a hospital, clinic, nursing home or other medical facility to isolate a case, carrier, suspect case or suspect carrier of diphtheria, rubella (German measles), influenza with pandemic potential, invasive meningococcal disease, measles, monkeypox, mumps, pertussis, poliomyelitis, pneumonic form of plague, severe or novel coronavirus, vancomycin intermediate or resistant Staphylococcus aureus (VISA/VRSA), smallpox, tuberculosis (active), vaccinia disease, viral hemorrhagic fever or any other contagious disease that in the opinion of the Commissioner may pose an imminent and significant threat to the public health, in a manner consistent with recognized infection control principles and isolation procedures in accordance with State Department of Health regulations or guidelines pending further action by the Commissioner or designee."
Just because you do not remember seeing a measles quarantine sign in New York City does not mean there were none.
Not all drugs have Black Box Labels. Cipro does. And for good reason.
Exactly why we should always have the freedom to choose. Not everyone's body will react in the same way to a vaccine or other medication. We are not all perfect clones of one another. People can and do have reactions.
I didn't say that you said that YOU schooled someone, you commented about someone schooling someone. Anyway, that part of the story is pretty irrelevant as it just led to me googling the person's name and finding a ton of interesting info about the vaccine court and how messed up that whole system is.
Yes, some drugs do have warnings. The need for those warnings often is not apparent until after the drug has been used millions of times. Then the warning is added and indications for the use of the drug adjusted. That is the way science works.
There are no childhood vaccines with black box warnings.
You can ramble on about "freedom to choose", but there is no logical way to base choosing not to vaccinate based on risk of the vaccine. The risks remain tiny and far smaller than the risk of the disease. In order to choose not to vaccinate you have to ignore the risks of not vaccinating. People do that because they have never seen a case of a vaccine preventable disease - because most of us are vaccinated against them.
I searched that entire page. The only one who used the word "schooled" was you.
The discussion was about the judge not believing an "expert" in a vaccine court case. The judge did indeed impeach that person's testimony.
What you previously posted did imply that I said I "schooled" someone. Do I have to diagram the sentence for you?
"Suzy commented on something she had said that supposedly 'schooled' someone."
Does "she" not mean "Suzy"? If not, who is "she"? The judge? How were we posting here supposed to know that?
Doctors talk to parents about vaccines every day. There is a group who are impervious to what doctors tell them. They are absolutely convinced that the stories on the internet and garbage from the anti-vax websites are true and no one can convince them otherwise. Those parents absolutely discount all of the scientific evidence. That mindset is the reason that many doctors are now asking vaccine refusing patients to leave their practices. They are tired of trying to educate parents with no medical training who think they know more than all of the scientists who develop vaccines and the doctors who administer them. In addition, parents who vaccinate do not want to risk having their children exposed to vaccine preventable diseases at their doctors' offices.
What is happening is that Americans are increasingly science illiterate and willing to accept pseudoscience instead.
Your implication is that somehow vaccines are "more toxic" than they are. The risks from the diseases vaccine prevent are massively greater than the risks of the vaccines themselves.( must have been someone else, I never mentioned this^)
Thalidomide, Accutane, Vioxx, and The Tuskeegee syphilis experiment have nothing to do with vaccines.
By the way, thalidomide was never approved by the FDA.
From the New England Journal of Medicine: Guilty, Afraid, and Alone - Struggling with Medical Error.
In interviews that our group conducted for a documentary film, patients and families that had been affected by medical error illuminated a number of themes.
Three of these themes have been all but absent from the literature.
First, though it is well recognized that clinicians feel guilty after medical mistakes, family members often have similar or even stronger feelings of guilt.Second, patients and their families may fear further harm, including retribution from health care workers, if they express their feelings or even ask about mistakes they perceive.
You - (They are tired of trying to educate parents with no medical training who think they know more than all of the scientists who develop vaccines and the doctors who administer them. In addition, parents who vaccinate do not want to risk having their children exposed to vaccine preventable diseases at their doctors' offices.
What is happening is that Americans are increasingly science illiterate and willing to accept pseudoscience instead. )
And third, clinicians may turn away from patients who have been harmed, isolating them just when they are most in need.
You- (That mindset is the reason that many doctors are now asking vaccine refusing patients to leave their practices. They are tired of trying to educate parents with no medical training who think they know more than all of the scientists who develop vaccines and the doctors who administer them. ) MMS: Error
(Thalidomide, Accutane, Vioxx, and The Tuskeegee syphilis experiment have nothing to do with vaccines.)
No, it doesn't, but it does have to do with my point which is people lack confidence in medicine, especially after an error, and that creates people leery of vaccination and other medical miracles. It's creates this polarized environment which is harmful to both doctor and patient.
The patient is a large part of the picture. It's not just about the doctor or the scientist. Segregating the patient is how we've gotten here in the first place. I don't think the medical profession can go backwards, and expect blind faith from patients anymore. Not with the information age.
This doesn't only apply to the medical profession, it has more to do with the informational age. MP's just need to get on board. Media plays a large part, and using fear to coerce people doesn't work, it can cause more harm than good.
I share this opinion: More important, research suggests that appeals to fear can cause harm. For example, in a study of patients with type 2 diabetes, patients recognized when their doctors were using scare tactics to motivate compliance, but many said such threats resulted in increased feelings of anxiety, incompetence and negativity towards their physician. Fear-based Medicine: Using Scare Tactics in the Clinical Encounter | THCB
I understand at the core of your arguments is a well meaning message. It's just so hard to see past the surface. Your tactics lack a sense of sincerity that people can clearly see. It might just be the way you write. Maybe that's why you have a hard time convincing people.
This is why we have an Opioid Epidemic Epidemic. Not only illegal usage, but physician prescribed. Patient cannot experience pain. Must give drugs to treat that. My elderly husband after hip surgery. Oxycodone for weeks after surgery. Nodding out. DRIVING to work taking that doctor proscribed drug. Are you still in PAIN? Here is another script. Terrified me seeing him like that. I screamed at him that he was becoming an addict. When he did finally stop them, he went through withdrawal even after only a few weeks. Shakes, chills, on and on. He never wanted to go through that withdrawal again. Second, surgery. "Do NOT give that Oxycodone again". But, but, but DOCTOR knows better than YOU?
Once again, another burned experience by medical professionals. TRUST what doctor tells you you need over your own experiences? I thoroughly believe that people need to trust their OWN experiences over what any medical professional says. No doctor can get into another's body to feel what they are feeling. One size does not fit ALL.
All this goes way beyond vaccinations. I/my kids had an adverse reaction to a drug/vaccine but doctor says it is perfectly SAFE so you blindly follow what he says?
It does go beyond vaccinations. That's the thing, it effects it all. I understand how hard it is gaining trust again after medical error. Not many people are on your side when you talk to medical professionals about it so you group with others who've also suffered.
While I haven't personally dealt with a severe medical error, only the multiple wrong guesses which I wouldn't call error just wrong guesses, I do have a few close friends in the medical field. I hear all kinds of stories about error. One who just got out of nursing school has some scary ones. And the one in pharmacy school said they told her she might accidentally kill someone as it happens in this area of medicine. I hear it from the other side. To be honest I wish I didn't.
I also hear how they feel about patients, which can really make you paranoid next time your in a docs office or at the hospital. lol I am glad to see this new generation are starting to take into account people who've suffered from medical errors, and they are apologizing and understand more. I hope that starts happening more frequently. That will build more trust than all the belittling and silence that's been going on for years.
That oxy is a dangerous drug, it'll eat your insides out and you won't feel it. I'm glad they are finally catching on that these are over prescribed. Knowledge is power. I have had a few friends addicted to those over the years and both passed away from it. Very sad.
You're right, one size does not fit all. Even the medicines prescribed act differently depend on who you are or your habits.
I'm very cautious about who I see when I'm ill, and what I take. Lucky for me I can ask friends most of the time. I treat medicine like a consumer now. I don't blindly trust doctors like I use to.
Last edited by Tokinouta; 04-09-2017 at 08:30 PM..
Reason: lol put sever.
I searched that entire page. The only one who used the word "schooled" was you.
Here is your post and I bolded where you said it (post #100 in that thread if you want to take a second look):
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
The people criticizing the study that showed no association between the HPV vaccine and neurological symptoms are doing so based on only a small number of cases, with the only thing to support their belief that the vaccine causes those symptoms being that the vaccination preceded the symptoms - and often preceded the symptoms by years. Despite that, they are concluding that a "post-HPV syndrome" exists. You cannot show causation with case reports. They have no controls. While accusing the people who have done a study that showed no evidence of causation by the HPV vaccine of "possibly" being biased, they are making invalid assumptions. That's bad science, and a judge schools Dr. Blitshteyn for that here:
Note that in the Medscape article Blitshteyn does not disclose that she testifies before the vaccine court for claims that HPV causes neurological symptoms. Conflict of interest, anyone?
Quote:
What you previously posted did imply that I said I "schooled" someone. Do I have to diagram the sentence for you?
"Suzy commented on something she had said that supposedly 'schooled' someone."
Does "she" not mean "Suzy"? If not, who is "she"? The judge? How were we posting here supposed to know that?
I missed a word when I wrote that and didn't proofread. No,I don't need for you to diagram the sentence for me. I apologize if I offended you with my error but I did try to clarify and am not interested in arguing about this. Overall, this is all totally irrelevant to the point I was making.
From the New England Journal of Medicine: Guilty, Afraid, and Alone - Struggling with Medical Error.
In interviews that our group conducted for a documentary film, patients and families that had been affected by medical error illuminated a number of themes.
Three of these themes have been all but absent from the literature.
First, though it is well recognized that clinicians feel guilty after medical mistakes, family members often have similar or even stronger feelings of guilt.Second, patients and their families may fear further harm, including retribution from health care workers, if they express their feelings or even ask about mistakes they perceive.
You - (They are tired of trying to educate parents with no medical training who think they know more than all of the scientists who develop vaccines and the doctors who administer them. In addition, parents who vaccinate do not want to risk having their children exposed to vaccine preventable diseases at their doctors' offices.
What is happening is that Americans are increasingly science illiterate and willing to accept pseudoscience instead. )
And third, clinicians may turn away from patients who have been harmed, isolating them just when they are most in need.
You- (That mindset is the reason that many doctors are now asking vaccine refusing patients to leave their practices. They are tired of trying to educate parents with no medical training who think they know more than all of the scientists who develop vaccines and the doctors who administer them. ) MMS: Error
(Thalidomide, Accutane, Vioxx, and The Tuskeegee syphilis experiment have nothing to do with vaccines.)
No, it doesn't, but it does have to do with my point which is people lack confidence in medicine, especially after an error, and that creates people leery of vaccination and other medical miracles. It's creates this polarized environment which is harmful to both doctor and patient.
The patient is a large part of the picture. It's not just about the doctor or the scientist. Segregating the patient is how we've gotten here in the first place. I don't think the medical profession can go backwards, and expect blind faith from patients anymore. Not with the information age.
This doesn't only apply to the medical profession, it has more to do with the informational age. MP's just need to get on board. Media plays a large part, and using fear to coerce people doesn't work, it can cause more harm than good.
I share this opinion: More important, research suggests that appeals to fear can cause harm. For example, in a study of patients with type 2 diabetes, patients recognized when their doctors were using scare tactics to motivate compliance, but many said such threats resulted in increased feelings of anxiety, incompetence and negativity towards their physician. Fear-based Medicine: Using Scare Tactics in the Clinical Encounter | THCB
I understand at the core of your arguments is a well meaning message. It's just so hard to see past the surface. Your tactics lack a sense of sincerity that people can clearly see. It might just be the way you write. Maybe that's why you have a hard time convincing people.
Doctors are hesitant to discuss "mistakes" because they do not want to lose their livelihoods. What patients perceive as mistakes are most often non-preventable complications. If you want dialog on "medical errors" you need to remove the threat of lottery sized malpractice verdicts.
How could anyone in the health care profession do anything in the way of "retribution"? That just sounds paranoid.
Fear? Fear, uncertainty, and doubt is the very foundation of the anti-vaccination movement, which wants everyone to fear vaccines. For some parents, that works quite well because they have never seen anyone with a vaccine preventable disease. By golly, let a measles outbreak hit their unvaxed community and they get the vaccine lickety split.
As far as vaccines are concerned, there is no educating a (thankfully small but unfortunately growing) hard core group of vaccine refusers. No approach works, and many have been tried. That is similar to the diabetics who perceive the counselling they receive as "scare tactics". To be blunt, diabetes is scary. There is no way to make it not scary. How to you explain to a new diabetic what the complications of diabetes are without "scaring" them? Pat them on the head, say, "Here, honey, just take this pill, do not worry about your blood sugar, everything is going to be just fine"?
Information is only as good as its source. If you avoid any website that ends in .edu or .gov when you do your online "research" about vaccines the chance that you are looking at garbage in and garbage out goes way up.
You misunderstand why I write here. I know there are people posting who will never be convinced by anything I say. They are not my audience. Perhaps with a little thought you might be able to figure out who is.
I am very sincere when I write about vaccines. otherwise I would not do it.
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I apologize if I offended you with my error but I did try to clarify and am not interested in arguing about this. Overall, this is all totally irrelevant to the point I was making.