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Old 07-19-2018, 08:33 AM
 
4,559 posts, read 1,433,499 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
Well, it does keep the MIC happy.
What's the MIC?
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:37 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,508 posts, read 28,592,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by what'd i miss View Post
Those countries would want military bases here as well then ?
We pay more so we get to put our military wherever we want ? Is that the actual deal?
I think it would be a kind gesture if some European NATO countries would help us defend our southern border, since we have so much trouble keeping people and drugs from being smuggled into the U.S.

But overall, the U.S. is mostly safe from a foreign attack because it is so difficult to get here from just about all other countries.
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
27,108 posts, read 13,390,429 times
Reputation: 19395
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightleavenyc View Post
10 years is ridiculous. Trump is right to demand a faster pace. In 2024, if you wait, they'll just have more excuses.
Trump isn't demanding anything of anyone, and in terms of guidelines they are just that guidelines as agreed by all members.

The Germans are increasingly happy for American bases to go, and bases in Italy have more to with the mediterranean, middle east and north africa than they do with NATO. A lot of US bases have already been shifted from Germany to Italy over recent decades.

As Trump rattles NATO, 42 percent of Germans now want U.S. troops out of the country - The Washington Post

Poll: 42% of Germans want US troops out of country - Stars and Stripes

Germans want Donald Trump to pull US troops out of Germany, poll finds - The Independent

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guardian

And what are all these bases doing in Italy? Here's the way one US military official in Italy (who asked not to be named) explained the matter to me:
I'm sorry, Italy, but this is not the cold war. They're not here to defend Vicenza from a [Soviet] attack. They're here because we agreed they need to be here to do other things, whether that's the Middle East or the Balkans or Africa.

Italy: home of pizza, pasta, wine and the US military | Guardian

Italy Is Getting Fed Up with American Soldiers | VICE News

The rest of Europe has very few US Forces in it, there is the occasional base such as the US Navy bases in Spain which again are as much to with projecting power abroad or intelligence bases.

United States military deployments - Wikipedia

Even in Germany nearly one third of US Forces are based around Ramstein, a giant international hub from which the US directs planes all over the world, and which supplies the US Military across the world.

Ramstein is also home to the vast US Landstuhl Regional Medical Center, the largest overseas US Military Hospital, which treated the seriously US Personnel injured from Iraq and Afghanistan. The Hospital is now being replaced by the new $1 Billion Military Hospital in Weilerbach.

Supporting the New U.S. Military Hospital, Weilerbach - CDM Smith

Last edited by Brave New World; 07-19-2018 at 08:51 AM..
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:44 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,508 posts, read 28,592,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
Trump would be right if he pulled the USA out of NATO and left the Europeans to their own devices.
As it stands right now, most NATO countries would not be able to defend themselves in the (unlikely) event that Russia attacked them.

That is why they need help from the U.S. But it is true that we need to rethink this as things change in the future.
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:46 AM
 
45,676 posts, read 23,974,032 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightleavenyc View Post
They are supposed to get to 2% and it should happen right away. We spend 4%. Why are you defending these slackers?
But the USA chooses to spend 4% of their GDP on military expenditures.

You are suggesting if the USA decides to spend 10% of GDP -- so does everyone else -- how ridiculous!!!

The USA chooses to spend larger amounts of money on military vehicle equipment development and production....because they need all those weapons just for themselves? Nope -- they sell them to other countries.

How do other military compensate their labour -- their armed forces -- is it the same as the USA -- maybe they pay less.

So many things to consider.

The USA chooses to have strategic bases around the world - -not for the protection of their host countries -- that's a side benefit -- the real reason -- for the use of the USA military. It is strategic to have bases as halfway points around the world for fuel, for travel, for obvious reasons.

It is ridiculous to expect other countries to have the same military strategy.

If the USA wants to leave a host country because it feels that the host country is not meeting its responsibilities -- then get up and leave.
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Old 07-19-2018, 09:03 AM
 
4,559 posts, read 1,433,499 times
Reputation: 1919
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
I think it would be a kind gesture if some European NATO countries would help us defend our southern border, since we have so much trouble keeping people and drugs from being smuggled into the U.S.

But overall, the U.S. is mostly safe from a foreign attack because it is so difficult to get here from just about all other countries.
Have we asked?

They jumped during 911 to help us.

Of course the way Trump has treated them we would defiantly have to be sure to ask once Trump is removed.
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Old 07-19-2018, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
27,108 posts, read 13,390,429 times
Reputation: 19395
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
As it stands right now, most NATO countries would not be able to defend themselves in the (unlikely) event that Russia attacked them.

That is why they need help from the U.S. But it is true that we need to rethink this as things change in the future.

European NATO allies now spend around $270 Billion on defence which is three or four times what the Russians spend.

There is also no way Russia a country of 140 million could invade Europe, a continent of 741 million people.

It also should be noted that many of the bases in Europe are as much for America's own benefit rather than for merely European defence and the US defence budget may account for 70% of all the defence budgets in NATO, but less than 5% of the US Defence budget goes towards NATO, which makes a mockery of Trump's claims.

The US has all kinds of assets in Europe from NSA Intelligence bases, submarine cable tapping facilities, ballistic missile early warning systems, communicaions and radar facilities right through to logistic and naval support through to emergency medical centres supporting US Forces globally. To pretend this is all for Europe's good is laughable, indeed the only thing the US is really short of is actual combat brigades as there are only two of them based in Europe, the 2nd Cavalry Regiment, in Vilseck in Germany and the 173rd Airborne Brigade based in in Vicenza, Italy.

The US does however have the 207th Military Intelligence Brigade (United States) based in Italy whose role relates entirely to Africa, and the 66th Military Intelligence Brigade based in Germany but heavily involved in Afghanistan.

There are also logistics brigades and commands such as the2 1st Theater Sustainment Command, which again support US Forces in Afghanistan, North Africa and US Ops in the Missle East or even parts of Asia. Whilst the US 30th Medical Brigade in the US Military Hospital in Germany have treated US Service Prsonnel from Iraq and Afghanistan, and indeed beyond.

There are lots of such deployments from Europe in to war zones, leaving empty barracks in Europe, so US Forces in Europe do fluctuate and this equally applies to the USAF and USN.


Last edited by Brave New World; 07-19-2018 at 09:19 AM..
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Old 07-19-2018, 09:09 AM
 
56,989 posts, read 35,159,743 times
Reputation: 18824
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
As it stands right now, most NATO countries would not be able to defend themselves in the (unlikely) event that Russia attacked them.

That is why they need help from the U.S. But it is true that we need to rethink this as things change in the future.
Pffffft...I wouldn’t risk my life to save a single European nation. If they can’t defend themselves from Russia, too bad.
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Old 07-19-2018, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Minnysoda
10,659 posts, read 10,715,722 times
Reputation: 6745
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
I think it would be a kind gesture if some European NATO countries would help us defend our southern border, since we have so much trouble keeping people and drugs from being smuggled into the U.S.

But overall, the U.S. is mostly safe from a foreign attack because it is so difficult to get here from just about all other countries.
We should let the IDF have a base on the border! Those guys know how to defend a border!!!
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Old 07-19-2018, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
16,569 posts, read 15,241,924 times
Reputation: 14590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
The Truth instead of Trump's nonsense.

As well as the US $87 Billion already being spent (almost three times the total US spending on NATO), there are plans for much more future spending and many countries are looking to meet guidelines and increase spending.
Nice try for trying to confuse the issue. Th $87 billion figure you are throwing around is immaterial. There is no "NATO budget" for the Europeans to spend it on. Each country is required to spend 2% of their GDP on their OWN military so when they are called upon to serve, they don't run out of ammunition in a week, as they did in Libya a few years ago.
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