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Old 09-06-2018, 07:57 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,453,904 times
Reputation: 4831

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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
You're claiming people can take what they need, even if they don't produce. That's communism.

Communism fails.
The communist thought exists in all of us. Even in our society that disincentivizes such human behavior, we still want to exist by the principle of mutual aid, helping make our lives better, and living freely.

When one has access to free labor, they see their production, and they work with others to make it better. It is human nature of the state would only allow us to live freely.
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Old 09-06-2018, 08:16 AM
 
4,668 posts, read 3,910,129 times
Reputation: 3437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
The communist thought exists in all of us. Even in our society that disincentivizes such human behavior, we still want to exist by the principle of mutual aid, helping make our lives better, and living freely.

When one has access to free labor, they see their production, and they work with others to make it better. It is human nature of the state would only allow us to live freely.
Humans do like community, we are social creatures. But humans dont like to be forced to do things, and thats the centerpiece of communism. Humans love possessions and we love self-ownership. One of the first words almost all humans learn is "mine." Theres a reason for that.

There are almost no communist countries left in the world today, and I believe that is because people dont like communism.

Human wants and desires varies from person to person, and thats why our governments have evolved to where they are today. Almost all governments and economies are mixed capitalist societies. We recognize there are wants and there are needs. Government can provide for our basic needs, but it cant provide for our wants, since every individual is different. We have to provide that for our self, it cant be given to us by a community. Capitalism offers an outlet for those wants, but having a mixed economy gives protections to those who could be taken advantage of.

It provides a way for someone to be wealthy, it provides a way for someone to travel the world and make money doing it, and it provides a decent life for the widow taking care of a child. Its not a perfect system, but it works very well and few fall in the cracks.
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Old 09-06-2018, 08:47 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,453,904 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattks View Post
Humans do like community, we are social creatures. But humans dont like to be forced to do things, and thats the centerpiece of communism. Humans love possessions and we love self-ownership. One of the first words almost all humans learn is "mine." Theres a reason for that.

There are almost no communist countries left in the world today, and I believe that is because people dont like communism.

Human wants and desires varies from person to person, and thats why our governments have evolved to where they are today. Almost all governments and economies are mixed capitalist societies. We recognize there are wants and there are needs. Government can provide for our basic needs, but it cant provide for our wants, since every individual is different. We have to provide that for our self, it cant be given to us by a community. Capitalism offers an outlet for those wants, but having a mixed economy gives protections to those who could be taken advantage of.

It provides a way for someone to be wealthy, it provides a way for someone to travel the world and make money doing it, and it provides a decent life for the widow taking care of a child. Its not a perfect system, but it works very well and few fall in the cracks.
Communism as has been seen in political practice is different than communist thought (which is what I was promoting).

Politically, I’m against forcing anyone to do anything. But if you take away private power and state power, people will be free to produce amongst themselves, town to town, community to community.

The problem with the capitalist understanding of property is that it mixes personal and private property together. Personal property is what we physically control, and is limited by our physical abilities.
The tools we use, the land we live on, etc. these are all under your control and until that control (or influence) abaits, it is for you exclusively. Private property is different, it is control of things that one does not control, factories, housing (not the one you live in), people’s labor (not your own), and other forms of capital. There ownership by you can only be practiced by the authoritarian control of invisible power. You are not physically or have not physically used something, and yet others don’t have a freedom to practice their living with these shared resources (all from the earth).

Not only does this lead to state authority (need someone to bash skulls for using what you claim is yours through state law/documents), it also leads to excess control by individuals who hold other people down and repress their freedoms. They now have to work FOR others to practice labor, the land they can walk on is no longer determined by population, but by ownership of capital. Once you allow these few individuals to practice power beyond their individual limits, they then collectivize labor, property, and other forms of capital giving them de facto authority of others.
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Old 09-06-2018, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,453,904 times
Reputation: 4831
The author of this article seems to not understand that the ‘free markets’ are not a system that can maintain sides with an egalitarian population, for it would not work.

He seems to want the best of both worlds, a great way of excusing those in power today and giving them justification for staying in power later.
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Old 09-06-2018, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,453,904 times
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This is good news: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnb...ownership.html

Workers deserve a say in business even if Bezos feels himself entitled to it all.
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Old 09-06-2018, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Austin
15,656 posts, read 10,426,606 times
Reputation: 19570
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
This is good news: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnb...ownership.html

Workers deserve a say in business even if Bezos feels himself entitled to it all.
workers do have a say in Bezos' business. workers are free to quit working for his companies at any time. If they feel they are underpaid, they are free to find another employer willing to pay them more for their skill set.
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Old 09-06-2018, 04:09 PM
 
801 posts, read 455,771 times
Reputation: 1456
I love Bernie and wish he would have been President.
But that said, why should Bezos not get what he can for creating a great company like Amazon, like any other builder of a big business does?
I have heard Bezos treats employees badly but the way I figure it no one has to work there.
Meanwhile, he has a very customer-service oriented business that makes buying things I want very easy and he gets them to me in 1-3 days and if I ever need to return anything it's "no problem"!

I praise Bezos for creating a great online store that serves his customers and treats his customers very well.

Do I wish he'd pay his workers more and treat them better? Well really I don't KNOW how they are paid or treated but if they are paid and treated badly then yes, I do wish he'd treat them better.

But we have a capitalist system, like it or not, and as long as he's not breaking any laws he should be praised for running a great business!
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Old 09-06-2018, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,453,904 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by movingvanmorrison View Post
I love Bernie and wish he would have been President.
But that said, why should Bezos not get what he can for creating a great company like Amazon, like any other builder of a big business does?
I have heard Bezos treats employees badly but the way I figure it no one has to work there.
Meanwhile, he has a very customer-service oriented business that makes buying things I want very easy and he gets them to me in 1-3 days and if I ever need to return anything it's "no problem"!

I praise Bezos for creating a great online store that serves his customers and treats his customers very well.

Do I wish he'd pay his workers more and treat them better? Well really I don't KNOW how they are paid or treated but if they are paid and treated badly then yes, I do wish he'd treat them better.

But we have a capitalist system, like it or not, and as long as he's not breaking any laws he should be praised for running a great business!
Reforming away from capitalism is the best thing to do as capitalism confines freedoms and collectivizes the economy.

A better system is a worker managed economy, were labor is free to access for everyone. Remember, Amazon operates because of the employees, not the managers, all the managers achieve in doing is organize labor so that production is maximized at the cheapest price, while expanding into consumer markets to help manipulate demand. We don’t need private wealth to be the main motivator for economic activity.
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Old 09-06-2018, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,453,904 times
Reputation: 4831
Suprise suprise, Liberals are bashing Bernie.

Of course most of the Obama Clinton democrats hold the right wing, big government ideology, as well as the corporate funded ‘progressive’ think tanks.

They like focusing on identity politics and other nonsense, but when it comes to actual policy, they want everyone to be quiet. Now they complain it’ll lower the number of welfare recipients, as if Amazon is not withholding money that the workers produced.

https://www.google.com/amp/m.huffpos...7b003e0858/amp
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Old 09-07-2018, 06:43 AM
 
17,291 posts, read 29,440,275 times
Reputation: 8691
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Reforming away from capitalism is the best thing to do as capitalism confines freedoms and collectivizes the economy.

A better system is a worker managed economy, were labor is free to access for everyone. Remember, Amazon operates because of the employees, not the managers, all the managers achieve in doing is organize labor so that production is maximized at the cheapest price, while expanding into consumer markets to help manipulate demand. We don’t need private wealth to be the main motivator for economic activity.


Workers can ban together anytime they want to create a business and share the profits as they see fit.

Our current system allows this. There are few examples of this happening in practice because it's not human nature outside of small tribal bands to be so fiercely egalitarian...but they do exist.


So, what are YOU doing to start a business with your worker friends? Or do you expect to seize something else that someone else bit and then try to run it?
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