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I think some people assume that an absence of pride is the same thing as shame. It isn't.
I've always kind of felt the same way you do: pride is something reserved for one's personal accomplishments, not one's nationality, race, intelligence (as opposed to acquired knowledge, which is an accomplishment) or any other thing that is essentially an accident of birth. So, no, I am not particularly proud to be an American, any more than I am ashamed of it. I may be thankful, as living here means I am unlikely to ever be imprisoned for my political views or to die in a famine, but thankfulness is a whole other thing, and has little to do with pride.
So you don't feel pride (or shame) in your parents or relatives or children, just indifference? Get out of here with that.
So you don't feel pride (or shame) in your parents or relatives or children, just indifference? Get out of here with that.
I didn't say I felt indifference, and I don't know why you think that I did. I have felt admiration, gratitude, all kinds of things. But as I said before, to me, pride is something one can only rightly feel for one's own accomplishments, or perhaps also for those of their children, insofar as good parenting can equip children to do great things.
I didn't say I felt indifference, and I don't know why you think that I did. I have felt admiration, gratitude, all kinds of things. But as I said before, to me, pride is something one can only rightly feel for one's own accomplishments, or perhaps also for those of their children, insofar as good parenting can equip children to do great things.
I didn't say I felt indifference, and I don't know why you think that I did. I have felt admiration, gratitude, all kinds of things. But as I said before, to me, pride is something one can only rightly feel for one's own accomplishments, or perhaps also for those of their children, insofar as good parenting can equip children to do great things.
You can be proud of anyone or anything. You can certainly be proud (happiness and satisfaction) of your own admirable qualities or shameful even if you did nothing to acquire them.
People who tell you shouldn't be proud want you to be humble and shameful.
In your own example, parents can be proud of their good children, their children can be proud of their good parents and proud of themselves insofar they behaved as good kids.
I come down on Cat's side on this one. Gratitude is what I feel when considering the accomplishments of my predecessors not pride, which is not my privilege.
I come down on Cat's side on this one. Gratitude is what I feel when considering the accomplishments of my predecessors not pride, which is not my privilege.
Someone else's accomplishments don't have to benefit you for you to be proud of them.
"Pride" in this context means a feeling of fealty and adherence to a particular set of people; one's blood-relations are a subset of that set, but the set itself is far larger; lacking a better term, we can call it a "tribe". In other words, "pride" is a tribal feeling, where members of the tribe have a mutual adherence, neighborliness, trust. Those external to the tribe could perhaps still be decent people, honorable people, wise and accomplished people... but they're not members of the tribe, and therefore don't enjoy the immediate and visceral rapport of tribe-membership.
Such tribal-pride is, I think, humanly inevitable. The question becomes, "what in the modern world legitimately constitutes a tribe"? Is it a nation? A state? A race? Thus, perhaps, the premise of this thread.
I am reminded of Kurt Vonnegut's "Cat's Cradle", and his concepts of "karass" and its opposite, "granfalloon".
"Pride" in this context means a feeling of fealty and adherence to a particular set of people; one's blood-relations are a subset of that set, but the set itself is far larger; lacking a better term, we can call it a "tribe". In other words, "pride" is a tribal feeling, where members of the tribe have a mutual adherence, neighborliness, trust. Those external to the tribe could perhaps still be decent people, honorable people, wise and accomplished people... but they're not members of the tribe, and therefore don't enjoy the immediate and visceral rapport of tribe-membership.
Such tribal-pride is, I think, humanly inevitable. The question becomes, "what in the modern world legitimately constitutes a tribe"? Is it a nation? A state? A race? Thus, perhaps, the premise of this thread.
I am reminded of Kurt Vonnegut's "Cat's Cradle", and his concepts of "karass" and its opposite, "granfalloon".
I agree. But Catgirl and other liberals often say that whites at a national or racial level should not have this "tribal-pride" you mention. I'm of the belief they need more than they current have of it not less.
I didn't answer this OP right away, but it made me think. There have been people in my life who might have been thought to be in my "tribe" in one way or another, but whom I did not identify with at all. And thinking about this, I came up with one conclusion: The people in my daily life who I consider to be "my people" are people who are kind to others. I don't care what race, religion, where they live, their lifestyle, etc., etc. There are other attributes that I admire, of course, but if a person does not consider the needs and feelings of others, I don't really want to be around them. If they attempt, as they go through their lives, to make this world a more kind place rather than an ugly, mean place, then I identify with them.
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