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"Moldy Tater Gangrene, even before Moscow Marge."
(set 6 days ago)
Location: Dallas, TX
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WW2 was justified due to it being naked aggression by one power against other independent nations. Vietnam was ultimately due to America's "Red Scare" paranoia compelling it to jump into a nation whose history and culture we knew nothing about.
We had it in WW2 because we were fighting for our national survival.
The Vietnam War had absolutely NOTHING to do with our survival as a nation. The United States will always win wars that are justified based on our national survival. We’ll always lose wars that are attempts to impose unwanted hegemony and imperialism on another nation or region. It’s why we can’t win in Iraq or Afghanistan and won’t win in Iran if we try the same crap there.
It’s why the United States needed a draft for Vietnam, but had lines around the block trying to sign up for WW2.
We will never win a bad war. We aren’t cut out for it.
This is the second post you've made her I would like to rep.
As to the original question, my answer would be as follows:
The enemy was clearly defined.
The goal - to protect our allies, and ultimately, ourselves - was clearly defined.
The vast majority of Americans agreed on both the enemy and the goal.
I don't think it's a good idea to romanticize any war. War is terrible, and people - even the "good guys" sometimes commit terrible acts in times of war. However, I believe that WWII was at least the last time most Americans knew why we were fighting and agreed that the cause was a just one. Perhaps it is that spirit of unity, rather than the war itself, that is being romanticized.
Robert McNamara was a foolish man who believed virtually any issue could be reduced to numbers and utterly failed to understand the deep emotional attachment the Vietnamese people had to their ancestral lands, that it was a fool's errand thinking we could move people around their country at our will to accommodate our own poorly made plans.
Watch the documentary...he pretty much admits that. I have turned on people from the Vietnam era, I was in diapers when it started, to this documentary and it's amazing that their views towards McNamara are engraved in stone which is understandable. I don't have the same emotional baggage with this guy and didn't see a broken man or somebody who is foolish. I did see somebody coming to terms with what he did and imparting what he learned for future generations.
We had it in WW2 because we were fighting for our national survival.
The Vietnam War had absolutely NOTHING to do with our survival as a nation. The United States will always win wars that are justified based on our national survival. We’ll always lose wars that are attempts to impose unwanted hegemony and imperialism on another nation or region. It’s why we can’t win in Iraq or Afghanistan and won’t win in Iran if we try the same crap there.
It’s why the United States needed a draft for Vietnam, but had lines around the block trying to sign up for WW2.
We will never win a bad war. We aren’t cut out for it.
You are on fire in this thread desertdetroiter. Great post.
Romanticize the aggressor who ended up losing? This is the best answer to OP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter
The Second World War was a War to end fascism. We won.
The Vietnam War was an attempt at establishing American hegemony over a region that we had no business being in. It was an imposition of a superpower on a people that had had enough of superpowers imposing their will on them. It was a case of the United States inserting itself into a civil war between the only two factions that would determine the outcome of their nation...the North and South Vietnamese people. We never had any say so in the ultimate outcome.
Moreover, the United States as a superpower failed miserably by losing the war and getting ran out of the country by a comparatively ragtag army that didn’t have a 100th of our resources. The only resources they needed were National will, grit, determination, courage and the knowledge that if they hung in there, the Americans would have to eventually go home anyway. It was a stunning defeat for the United States.
Watch the documentary...he pretty much admits that. I have turned on people from the Vietnam era, I was in diapers when it started, to this documentary and it's amazing that their views towards McNamara are engraved in stone which is understandable. I don't have the same emotional baggage with this guy and didn't see a broken man or somebody who is foolish. I did see somebody coming to terms with what he did and imparting what he learned for future generations.
Thanks for the link to the documentary. Watched the opening and it looks great.
Yeah, I agree with you and I think we are in the same age range (Gen X). For all his flaws and mistakes, at least McNamara was able to admit his mistakes.
By contrast, saw Dick Cheney in an interview recently. No remorse or willingness to admit that the invasion of Iraq in 2003 was a huge mistake.
A rather dim co-worker of mine asked me, "Were all of those hijackers Iraqis?" And when I told her none of them were, she asked, "Then why did we invade Iraq?"
No kidding.
My father was a combat veteran in Europe, answered the draft in 1944 and fought across to the Occupation. He was Jewish and always said he knew what he was fighting for and that he wasn't mad at the Japanese. (Although I think he should have been). He also said he wished he'd gone to Israel in 1948 but actually felt his parents had been through enough with four sons in combat in WW2. When Vietnam happened, he certainly felt it was wrong-headed.
Obviously, the model for recent wars/police actions was the total war of WW2. It would appear Cheney thought that the U.S. could occupy Iraq from top to bottom *and* take all the oil, without considering the cost in blood and treasure it took to occupy Germany and stay for so many years.
I agree with those who say there was "nothing to win" in Vietnam. It was so clearly a civil war and we turned it into a proxy war and certainly not a total war that could be won at unfathomable price. I knew this when I was a teenager and just felt guilty/relieved that no one told me at age 18 to decide.
Robert McNamara was a foolish man who believed virtually any issue could be reduced to numbers and utterly failed to understand the deep emotional attachment the Vietnamese people had to their ancestral lands, that it was a fool's errand thinking we could move people around their country at our will to accommodate our own poorly made plans.
Robert McNamara finally understood his folly when Viet Nam took his son.
The Second World War was a War to end fascism. We won.
The Vietnam War was an attempt at establishing American hegemony over a region that we had no business being in. It was an imposition of a superpower on a people that had had enough of superpowers imposing their will on them. It was a case of the United States inserting itself into a civil war between the only two factions that would determine the outcome of their nation...the North and South Vietnamese people. We never had any say so in the ultimate outcome.
Moreover, the United States as a superpower failed miserably by losing the war and getting ran out of the country by a comparatively ragtag army that didn’t have a 100th of our resources. The only resources they needed were National will, grit, determination, courage and the knowledge that if they hung in there, the Americans would have to eventually go home anyway. It was a stunning defeat for the United States.
Did not see this post before I posted.
Clap, clap, clap, bravo, could not have said it better.
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