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Does anyone seriously doubt that Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were not nice countries? Aushwitz, Dachau, Unit 731, the Rape of Nanking, etc. Not that Stalin's Russia was a model of progressive government.
WWII was about fighting evil Nazis Hitler.
Vietnam War was about fighting poor farmers in their country.
Unlike WW2, Vietnam War was brought into every American's living room in color television by combat reporters. That doesn't help with the war propaganda.
Yeah, Russia won it and then killed another 20-30 million of their own. To this day they have never had any sort of Democracy or Stability and are currently undermining much of the world...
I do thank them for squashing Hitler, but in the end it didn't work out too well for Russia and Eastern Europe or the masses killed in Chechyna , etc.
Where is that 20-30 million number coming from? Stalin died 8 years after the war was over in 1953. I'd say ~1-2 million died after 1945 due to forced population transfers and Gulag prisoners, and this figure is probably high imo. During his 30 year reign, total direct deaths attributed to Stalin (purges, Gulag prisoners, population transfers, and executions) are about 3-4 million. Maybe you are confusing the 20 million Soviet civilians Germans killed during WW2?
I don't know what Chechnya has to do with WW2, a completely unrelated conflict. About ~150,000 people combined on both sides died in two Chechen wars over a 10 year period, including civilians killed in terrorist attacks.
How many lives would have been ok for the US to lose before WWII. We were going to be sucked into the war based on that alone. Germany all but froze any water travel by civilians.
"Ultimately, all deaths were the result of the U-boat violating orders and torpedoing a merchant passenger liner... Which led to German fears that the incident would bring the US into the war.
It was not until January 1946, during the case against Admiral Raeder at the Nuremberg trials, that a statement by Admiral Dönitz was read in which he finally admitted that Athenia had been torpedoed by U-30 and that every effort had been made to cover it up. Lemp, who claimed he had mistaken her for an armed merchant cruiser, took the first steps to conceal the facts by omitting to make an entry in the submarine's log, and swearing his crew to secrecy."
It was an accident. The Germans did not by any means want a war with the United States. And Hitler basically kissed our ass because he was desperate to keep us out of the war.
If you want to know the reason why Germany declared war on America, Hitler himself laid the reasons out in his speech about why he declared war on the United States.
Where is that 20-30 million number coming from? Stalin died 8 years after the war was over in 1953. I'd say ~1-2 million died after 1945 due to forced population transfers and Gulag prisoners, and this figure is probably high imo. During his 30 year reign, total direct deaths attributed to Stalin (purges, Gulag prisoners, population transfers, and executions) are about 3-4 million. Maybe you are confusing the 20 million Soviet civilians Germans killed during WW2?
I think he is referring to the deaths from mass-starvations, which were either intentional, or the result of incompetence.
One such case is called the "Holomodor", which many call the "Ukrainian-genocide".
Likewise, most of the deaths attributed to Mao were also from famine. But the famine was the "fault" of stupid government policies which led to mass crop-failures. Mao gets the blame even though he didn't actually intend to kill anyone. He actually believed he would increase crop yields(IE the opposite of famine).
There is no doubt that Hitler's Germany and Japan were the aggressors and both were evil in every possible way, which made WW2 one of the rare wars where it was the good guys against the bad guys and Hollywood has placed on this narrative over the decades.
Furthermore each country has a different narrative in terms of WW2, the British were the plucky little island that held out and were victorious in the shies during the Battle of Britain.
Whilst British and Commonwealth were also victorious in North Africa and took a major role in D-Day and the liberation of Europe from the West, whilst the Royal Navy was too strong for the German Navy.
The American narrative is one of saving Europe from Nazi tyranny, D-Day is a very important part of the American Narrative, as is the liberation of Europe by American troops who fought their way across Europe.
The other American Narrative is in relation to the US taking on the Japanese in mighty sea battles and retaking the pacific region.
The Russians narrative is of the great sacrifice of the Russian people, the mighty land battles with the Germans which were the most significant of WW2 and the fact that they were responsible for 75% of German soldiers being killed and were the true liberators.
In terms of the Germans, it's not a great part of their history and it's moe about coming to terms wit the past, and it's the same with the Japanese, although both suffered heavy casualities in the end and in terms of the Japanese were the only country to experience the horrors of nuclear war.
As for Vietnam is was a Civil War, rather than a World War and was a very unpopular war, both in the US and around the world, so it's nor romanticised in any way.
There is no doubt that Hitler's Germany and Japan were the aggressors and both were evil in every possible way, which made WW2 one of the rare wars where it was the good guys against the bad guys and Hollywood has placed on this narrative over the decades.
While Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were aggressive and morally bankrupt powers let's not forget the allies committed many atrocities as well: firebombing (and atomic bombing) of civilians, internment of Japanese.In the case of the USSR (a key ally), it also was highly aggressive towards Poland and Finland.
I don't see WW2 in terms of good guys and bad guys as this is a simplistic reading of history. I see it in terms of morally flawed human beings with one side being more morally flawed than the other.
WW 2
1. Japanese attacked American territories and killed several thousand Americans.
2. Germans were a formidable enemy who managed to enslave most of Europe.
3. Germans were developing a three stage rocket called the New York rocket.
4. Japanese without American help would have invaded northern Australia. - Battle of Coral Sea - 1942
5. Germans would most certainly have enslaved and killed those non Ayrian Americans.
Vietnam
1. We interceded in a Vietnamese civil war to show the communists that we are willing to go to war with them.
2. Ho Chih Minh was a brilliant leader and tactician.
3. Hearts and minds? Nah.
Well stated. Also, the Vietnam War was initiated, based on a totally fabricated claim, about the so-called "Gulf of Tonkin Incident", that never happened. With the exception of two members, the whole U. S. Senate jumped on that false excuse and passed a resolution that took us into the war.
While Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were aggressive and morally bankrupt powers let's not forget the allies committed many atrocities as well: firebombing (and atomic bombing) of civilians, internment of Japanese.In the case of the USSR (a key ally), it also was highly aggressive towards Poland and Finland.
I don't see WW2 in terms of good guys and bad guys as this is a simplistic reading of history. I see it in terms of morally flawed human beings with one side being more morally flawed than the other.
In terms of Britain we were physically attacked, and our cities were devestated by the Luftwaffe and later V-1 and V-2 Flying Bombs and I make no apologies in terms of the bombing of Germany. It's also with noting that the average the life expectancy of a new recruit was just two weeks in terms of RAF Lancaster Bombers.
It was also the Germans objective to try and starve us to death by stopping supplies via their U-Boat fleet, so I don't have any sympathy for the Germans.
Likewise the Germans caused the deaths of millions of Russian/Soviet Civilians during WW2, the figure is over 13 million, and that's befoe you consider the 8 million Russian Military deaths. So the Russians had little sympathy for the Germans or indeed anyone else at the time.
Equally the Japanese actions in the far east and their treatment of civilians was disgusting, as were the massacres they inflicted on others. The US rightly took the view that it was going to cost a lot of American lives to invade Japan, so decided to force them in to submission through the use of the new Atomic Bombs that had recently been developed. After the second attomic bomb was dropped the Japanese couldn't sign that surrender fast enough and it's woth noting thast nobody has used such weapons since having witnessed the destruction in Japan.
As for the Poles, you just have to feel really sorry for them, having Germany and Russia as neighnours and they have historically suffered at the hands of both.
Last edited by Brave New World; 12-04-2018 at 03:31 AM..
In terms of Britain we were physically attacked, and our cities were devestated by the Luftwaffe and later V-1 and V-2 Flying Bombs and I make no apologies in terms of the bombing of Germany. It's also with noting that the average the life expectancy of a new recruit was just two weeks in terms of RAF Lancaster Bombers.
It was also the Germans objective to try and starve us to death by stopping supplies via their U-Boat fleet, so I don't have any sympathy for the Germans.
Likewise the Germans caused the deaths of millions of Russian/Soviet Civilians during WW2, the figure is over 13 million, and that's befoe you consider the 8 million Russian Military deaths. So the Russians had little sympathy for the Germans or indeed anyone else at the time.
Equally the Japanese actions in the far east and their treatment of civilians was disgusting, as were the massacres they inflicted on others. The US rightly took the view that it was going to cost a lot of American lives to invade Japan, so decided to force them in to submission through the use of the new Atomic Bombs that had recently been developed. After the second attomic bomb was dropped the Japanese couldn't sign that surrender fast enough and it's woth noting thast nobody has used such weapons since having witnessed the destruction in Japan.
As for the Poles, you just have to feel really sorry for them, having Germany and Russia as neighnours and they have historically suffered at the hands of both.
Germans did not cause. The German government did. The language you use is dehumanizing. Why is a German toddler in Dresden responsible for the actions of the German government? Firebombing, and he dies. You say you have no sympathy? Where is your humanity?
Hate the government, not the subjects! I agree, every single high ranking member of the Nazi government should have been placed in prison for the rest of their lives (I'm against capital punishment).
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