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View Poll Results: What's your opinon regarding the 'lying to investigators' charge?
liberal: It should be used infrequently if ever. 1 2.04%
liberal: It should only be used when accompanied by conviction of an underlying crime. 2 4.08%
liberal: It's fine as is, as used by people like Comey and Mueller. 3 6.12%
conservative: It should be used infrequently if ever. 10 20.41%
conservative: It should only be used when accompanied by conviction of an underlying crime. 5 10.20%
conservative: It's fine as is, as used by people like Comey and Mueller. 5 10.20%
independent: It should be used infrequently if ever. 7 14.29%
independent: It should only be used when accompanied by conviction of an underlying crime. 9 18.37%
independent: It's fine as is, as used by people like Comey and Mueller. 6 12.24%
other (please explain below). 1 2.04%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-29-2019, 07:57 PM
 
4,710 posts, read 7,105,370 times
Reputation: 5613

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The fact that lying to investigators has been used so often reflects the fact that the whole Trump organization is based on bald-faced lying, and everyone in it or associated approves of the tactic. It is no wonder that it is so used by the investigators. Trump does not believe that there is any virtue in honesty. He believes that the only virtue is in winning. So everyone associated has to equally put little weight or worth with the truth. They are all consummate and unrepentant liars, as lead by the example of their great leader, Donald.
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Old 01-29-2019, 08:20 PM
 
1,156 posts, read 942,039 times
Reputation: 3599
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBear View Post
Why talk at all, because it can NEVER help you. Take the 5th no matter what. They can twist anything to fit any narrative, and they WILL if they choose to do so.

This. Innocent people need sound legal representation immediately. The US system is adversarial and looking for convictions more than truth. Talking isn't worth the risk.
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Old 01-29-2019, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
18,462 posts, read 7,094,796 times
Reputation: 11708
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCbaxter View Post
If there’s no crime, why lie?


This is an incredibly naive question.



Any experienced interrogator can get someone to lie to them.

Especially when there are multiple interrogations over a period of time and the same questions are asked over and over again in different ways.

All they have to do is to get the suspect to state something that seemingly contradicts a previous answer, even from weeks or months before.

And then they have their charge.

In most cases it's used as leverage to get them to roll over on someone else, or to just save face and justify the investigation.
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Old 01-29-2019, 08:32 PM
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
6,061 posts, read 2,012,645 times
Reputation: 2167
Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
You do know this is nonsense right? That the actual laws do not allow you to be convicted for having a poor memory. Roger Stones lawyers are making that argument. The facts of the case make that laughable though.
It's not nonsense according to John Dowd, Trump's ex-lawyer, who was a US Attorney and has represented numerous high-profile clients including John McCain. See what Dowd says in Fear by Bob Woodward.

Are you claiming better legal expertise than Dowd?
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Old 01-29-2019, 08:37 PM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
25,581 posts, read 17,298,699 times
Reputation: 37349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakin View Post
You can trust Juries but it will cost you your fortune to be proven innocent. I've seen a guy spend $2-3 million defending himself against the Govt for bogus charge. They have unlimited funds.

You may be innocent, but they will bankrupt you first.
The whole arrest is about intimidation, not justice.
Lights, guns, yelling and police cars at 6AM. Grap the perp, throw him in the car, clear all the weapons, and "thank God" no one got hurt.
Then, two hours later, the "perp" is walking around the courthouse with a cup of coffee, having signed himself out of jail because the judge ruled he is not a flight risk. It's all an attempt at intimidation. If they really had something they would not need all the dogs and ponies.
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Old 01-29-2019, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
6,061 posts, read 2,012,645 times
Reputation: 2167
Quote:
Originally Posted by G Grasshopper View Post
The fact that lying to investigators has been used so often reflects the fact that the whole Trump organization is based on bald-faced lying, and everyone in it or associated approves of the tactic. It is no wonder that it is so used by the investigators. Trump does not believe that there is any virtue in honesty. He believes that the only virtue is in winning. So everyone associated has to equally put little weight or worth with the truth. They are all consummate and unrepentant liars, as lead by the example of their great leader, Donald.
But that doesn't explain Lewis 'Scooter' Libby and Martha Stewart.
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Old 01-29-2019, 08:40 PM
 
2,068 posts, read 999,874 times
Reputation: 3641
Quote:
Originally Posted by reneeh63 View Post
WRONG:

https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-...pecific-intent

Elements Of Perjury -- Specific Intent. The third element of a perjury offense is proof of specific intent, that is, that the defendant made the false statement with knowledge of its falsity, rather than as a result of confusion, mistake or faulty memory

Sooooo convenient to try to weasel out of perjury by whining "entrapment" - the law doesn't work like that. Even poor old trump, as confused and senile as he is will have an "out" - but his corrupt intentions will shine through and still bite him on the azz so I'm not worried in the slightest.

By this description, Hillary should be in an orange jumpsuit.


"I cannot recall..."
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Old 01-29-2019, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
6,061 posts, read 2,012,645 times
Reputation: 2167
So by my count, those opposed to the current use of this charge total 15, those in favor total 5--a 3 to 1 margin.
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Old 01-30-2019, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Planet earth
3,617 posts, read 1,822,566 times
Reputation: 1258
NEVER talk to police or any other government investigator. Anything you say CAN and likely WILL be used against you.
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Old 01-30-2019, 07:20 AM
 
13,966 posts, read 5,630,295 times
Reputation: 8621
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBear View Post
Why talk at all, because it can NEVER help you. Take the 5th no matter what. They can twist anything to fit any narrative, and they WILL if they choose to do so.

"Anything you say CAN and WILL BE used AGAINST you..." Right there in the so-called "Miranda Rights".

Do you see even a single HINT that there's anything in there (including God's own truth) that can be used FOR you?

Heck no you don't. It isn't there because in law, it doesn't exist. It's whatever the prosecutor wants to do, and a juries response.
This, this and MOAR THIS.

There is no upside whatsoever to speaking AT ALL. None. If you officially say "every good boy deserves fudge" and then later say "every good boy should get fudge" you just changed your testimony and are now guilty of a false official statement, which is then stretched to perjury and/or obstruction. That's EXACTLY WHY prosecutors want you talking - it gives them an easy "you just lied" angle of attack to fall back on.

When the whole thing about Trump submitting to a Mueller interview to "prove his innocence" was going around, I was shrieking from the rooftops that it was a false official statement/perjury/obstruction trap because they have nothing else and need the fall back.

Nobody should ever speak to investigators officially. Not ever. Either their lawyers speak from a prepared script, or no speaking happens whatsoever. If the prosecution can prove guilt, let them, but don't help them with additional charges because you can't remember the 5th Amendment and your civil liberties.
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