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Old 06-22-2019, 04:15 PM
 
7,520 posts, read 2,810,168 times
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If access to public lands across private land is an issue then it is up to the government entity to get it. They may have to pay if they didn't have their ducks in a row beforehand to make sure access was available. It may need to go to court and the state or fed will have to prove continued historical use. Or they may be able to work it out with the new property owners if the heat gets too hot in the kitchen. It is not a crisis like 100K people crossing the border per month.
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Old 06-22-2019, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Heart of the desert lands
3,976 posts, read 1,991,693 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeBeard View Post
Apparently, the Wilks have a habit of claiming portions of public lands as their own or denying access to it..

https://helenair.com/news/local/stat...59765e9bc7.htm
Your article shows the Wilkes used a hunting style of GPS to mark bounderies, the device not being accurate enough to do this. They are fixing it, and working with the public/local govt also.
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Old 06-22-2019, 04:16 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
89,029 posts, read 44,840,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeBeard View Post
Actually, the constitution says little about private property. Only that you cannot be deprived of life, liberty and property without due process and that the government can not take your property without just compensation, but it can take your property.
Read the 5th Amendment:

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

Has the government agreed to pay for the private property they want the public to be able to use/access?
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Old 06-22-2019, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Heart of the desert lands
3,976 posts, read 1,991,693 times
Reputation: 5219
Quote:
Originally Posted by redwood66 View Post
If access to public lands across private land is an issue then it is up to the government entity to get it. They may have to pay if they didn't have their ducks in a row beforehand to make sure access was available. It may need to go to court and the state or fed will have to prove continued historical use. Or they may be able to work it out with the new property owners if the heat gets too hot in the kitchen.
This also.

Looks like the govt screwed the pooch in defining things.
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Old 06-22-2019, 04:19 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
89,029 posts, read 44,840,107 times
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Originally Posted by TreeBeard View Post
Not necessarily. There is easement by prescription. This easement works like adverse possession. If I or a group of people have used a road for 20 or more years, we have an easement regardless of whether it is recorded or written, especially if it is our only means of imgress and egress. In this case, this access seems to have been in use for decades.
That's hard to prove. It has to be "continuous" and "uninterrupted" use. Not occasional use. Continuous use. BIG difference.
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Old 06-22-2019, 04:22 PM
 
7,800 posts, read 4,401,311 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Read the 5th Amendment:

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

Has the government agreed to pay for the private property they want the public to be able to use/access?
That is what I wrote. As I said the issue is one of "just compensation". In this case, why should the government pay for access that has existed for decades prior to the Wilkes buying the property. There may be compensation that needs to be paid to the Wilks, maybe not. I see the Wilks action as an end run to obtain public property without just compensation to the taxpayer. In other words a land grab of public property. It appears to be their MO.

Last edited by TreeBeard; 06-22-2019 at 04:34 PM..
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Old 06-22-2019, 04:25 PM
 
7,800 posts, read 4,401,311 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
That's hard to prove. It has to be "continuous" and "uninterrupted" use. Not occasional use. Continuous use. BIG difference.
Not in this case. This access has been in existence for well over 40 Years from what I could gather. There may be other factors that come into play where one could find an easement. I don't know Idaho law, but I have little doubt that easements are litigated quite often.
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Old 06-22-2019, 04:45 PM
 
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I don't know where these lands are exactly, but the easement by prescription is a pretty common thing in America (there are a lot of county roads in the Midwest that don't have a recorded right of way, but are considered to be for public use).

Also, I would be VERY surprised if the public lads were "landlocked", being surrounded by private property with no access to roads. I would NOT be surprised if the "access" that is being "cut off" is really code of "using the same public access that everyone else does is less convenient than cutting across private land".
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Old 06-22-2019, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
29,219 posts, read 22,371,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeBeard View Post
The controversy is, and with the Wilkes in particular, is that they are using their lands to deny others access to public lands. The Wilkes have also been accused of attempting to obtain water rights at the expense of others by litigation and string arm tactics. Does their ownership of these lands give them those rights? Can they deny you passage to public lands? That is what they are apparently doing.
I'm and Idaho native and have lived here all my life.

It's no surprise that the Wilkes are seeking the water rights on their properties. Water rights will eventually become more valuable than land as the west continues to grow; everyone needs water to survive, after all.

Idaho is headwaters country. This is one of the places where the mountain snow pack feeds the rivers and the rivers here feed the other rivers that supply states like Nevada and California the water they need for their populations. Every state needs a reliable, secure water supply for it's citizens.

That security comes through water rights. Those who own the rights own first use of the water, and when it comes to securing the rights, headwaters are the most reliable and bountiful source in Idaho.Even in droughts, the snow will still fall on the mountains and turn to ice in the winters. This is nature's storage tank for every warmer place.

Those who own first rights get all the water they need, while those downstream always have to negotiate for the rest of the water. In the past, underground natural aquifers collected and stored mountain runoff in huge quantity, but many of these aquifers have been depleted, and for many cities, those deep wells that pump the water up are running dry.

So the only way to recharge them is to cut down on the usage and sent the water into them with injection wells or from natural drainage from a river. It takes many years to refill an aquifer, so the recharge is done yearly, sending some water down while allowing the use of other water from the same source. This means most of the irrigated farms in the west have to stay dry for weeks longer than before, or irrigate less.

It also makes water a vital cash crop. The county who can pay the most tends to get the most. The farmers who can pay the highest rates have the most water security. And the guy who owns the headwaters lands ends up with most of the money that's being paid.

The State gets in the middle of it as the manager/controller since all water is essentially connected underground. And the rivers are the main recharge source. So every spring, some river water is diverted to aquifer recharge all over the west.

Here in Idaho, there is a grandfather clause in the water rights. The oldest rights are the most secure. So the senior rights holder can more water than his next-door neighbor who secured his rights later. Each right has a maximum limit that's based on acreage owned.

So for someone like the Wilkes, owning 6,000 acres of mountainous land with secure water rights is like owning a reserve bank. All that ice and snow that makes water might not be needed now downstream, but it will be in the future, and if it's close to Boise, that will be a short future. When the guy owns the spigot, he can turn in on or turn it off.

When it comes to public roads, there's another wrinkle. If a person owns the land on either side of the road, who actually owns the road surface? Him or the state? And who owns the air space directly above the roadway?

If the claim is made that the state owns the surface, then there is nothing illegal when gateposts are erected on either side of it on private land and a suspended gate that does not touch the road spans between the posts.

So who owns the air? After all, that gate can be only an inch above the road's surface and still be within the legal rights of property ownership. No human or vehicle is an inch tall.

The other thing about the roads is many of them were constructed privately by logging companies or land owners.
After the area was logged in state land, the roads remained and became public use through consent only, and often with no consent at all because the owners either didn't need the road anymore and didn't care who used it enough to press their ownership.

In both state and federal forests, the state or forest service sometimes built the roads as a way of regulation, and then once logged, allowed public usage informally, with nothing written on paper as to who owns what.

Other times, private owners simply allowed the public to use them even more informally. So over time, these road's ownership could be questioned by either the owners or the public.

That kind of question is decided in court, and while the decision is in process, the legal owners can, and have, gated the roads and stopped public access. Sometimes those gates stay up, sometimes they come down.

So it's all very complicated, and I expect it to become even more complicated in the near future, as, has already been mentioned, we have an Administration that is intent on selling federal lands off or leasing them with 99-years leases. that means more roads are going to be closed all over the country.
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Old 06-22-2019, 05:16 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
89,029 posts, read 44,840,107 times
Reputation: 13715
Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeBeard View Post
Not in this case. This access has been in existence for well over 40 Years from what I could gather. There may be other factors that come into play where one could find an easement. I don't know Idaho law, but I have little doubt that easements are litigated quite often.
"Existence" isn't a criteria. "Continuous" and "uninterrupted" use is. Occasional use doesn't cut it. BIG difference.

Furthermore, Idaho law doesn't matter as US Constitutional Rights have supremacy. US Constitution Article VI Supremacy Clause. I don't understand how people don't get that. That's exactly WHY the US Supreme Court vacated the Knick v. Township of Scott lower court ruling yesterday and restored US Constitutional property rights.
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