PSA for Conservatives: You can't have it both ways (immigration vs minimum wage) (lawyers, deport)

[Three Wolves In Snow]

Originally Posted by King_Henry

Theres a difference between the market setting wages and the government. Conservatives support one and generally dont support the other.

EXACTLY this.

Free market always works better than the government telling everyone what to do.

The more illegals you have, the lower the wages. That's very, very basic economics. That's like Economics 101 in your college courses. The first Economics class you take.

Originally Posted by RMESMH

Except that there are people who want illegal immigrants gone on principle.....whose motivation is that rather than caring at all what Americans replacing them are paid, and those same people can be simultaneously against raising the minimum wage.

"Those people" are the ones who don't want the government dictating what businesses have to pay.

Competition for citizens is a good thing. The business will not lose money. Yes, you will find some people (even white people) who will do that labor for less, but the majority will not. However, because those who won't work for less deserve a higher wage because they are worth that wage (because of their work ethic), the business won't have to hire as many people.

And THAT kills the nonsense being spread that we 'need" illegals to do all of those jobs that others won't do or we won't have lettuce for our salads because we don't have enough people to do the jobs. Yes, we do.

You will have lettuce for your salads, the business owner will not end up having to pay way more because he will have less people to pay, and no, your prices will not skyrocket through the roof.

You want more money? You show that you deserve it.

You want people employed? Stop bringing illegal aliens up here to "do the jobs Americans won't do" when the truth is that yes, those are jobs that Americans WILL do. Maybe you won't do them, but others will. In high school, for a summer job, I worked in apple orchards. So, yes, we have people who will do those jobs.

Yes, I know it's not easy labor. I lived in CA and saw people out in the fields all day - I don't envy them...which is another issue I have with illegal aliens being used as damn near slave labor. It's not easy work, but we have people who insist that it's okay to pay them crap wages under the table, and those illegals have no one to help them because they are....illegal!

Government needs to stay out of it except to protect our borders, which is their job. Their job is not to dictate what a business should pay someone. That's a negotiation between the applicant and the employer.

The left wants all these things, but doesn't understand how they shoot themselves when they also propose something else to "feel good" about themselves. Or, in some cases, because they rather enjoy the damn near slave labor if it "keeps the prices of vegetables down".

[FirebirdCamaro1220]

Originally Posted by SpaceB

As someone who has family with an actual working cattle farm in Europe (Denmark) - I can assure you that this is not, at all, what would happen. Their workers are all high paid legal citizens. Local people. The processing plant is one of the best employers in town, also. They have strong unions and protections for all of the workers. The workers have nice middle class lifestyles, houses, great schools, etc. And yet beef is perfectly affordable there.

The difference isn't Europe doesn't have the corporate greed that the USA does, and the big commercial farms and beef companies like Cargill, Tyson, National Beef etc, wouldn't want to erode their current profits, so they would raise prices through the roof if they had to pay their people say $20 to $25/hour

[agnostic soldier]

The meaning of the word illegal seem to pass over the heads of leftists. Illegal means something is a criminal act. Conservatives want to deport illegal immigrants because they value law and order, not merely for giving a better wage to law abiding citizens.

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by EddieB.Good

Just going off your logic for why you're opposed to both, you can't have it both ways.

You want to kick out illegal immigrants so that Americans can replace them and get paid better wages in the process...

But you're also opposed to increasing the cost of labor b/c that's going to accelerate the push to automate jobs...

So if replacing illegal immigrants w/ American workers ends up increasing the cost of labor... what exactly are you expecting employers to do about it?

The market should determine wages, not government.

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by agnostic soldier

The meaning of the word illegal seem to pass over the heads of leftists. Illegal means something is a criminal act. Conservatives want to deport illegal immigrants because they value law and order, not merely for giving a better wage to law abiding citizens.

It is odd that the far left doesn't understand there is a difference between an illegal and legal immigrant.

[BoBromhal]

Originally Posted by EddieB.Good

Just going off your logic for why you're opposed to both, you can't have it both ways.

You want to kick out illegal immigrants so that Americans can replace them and get paid better wages in the process...

But you're also opposed to increasing the cost of labor b/c that's going to accelerate the push to automate jobs...

So if replacing illegal immigrants w/ American workers ends up increasing the cost of labor... what exactly are you expecting employers to do about it?

what a fantastic question as an economic proposal! Or, since it's in POC, are we just supposed to rant at each other and fling rotten **** from each side of the forum?

[BoBromhal]

Originally Posted by dman72

Wow, I found another person on here who thinks like me. I too think we should have universal health care...I too know it can't happen without controlling the number of poor people who can flood into the country.

You have to understand that the basic tenet of many of our liberal friends is that the US is the "bad guy", responsible for all the poverty in central America where the majority of illegal immigrants come from, and therefore it is our moral obligation to allow everyone here who wants to enter to do just that. And they should be given full access to all services provided citizen. Of course there's never any realistic plan on how to pay for all this, but that's what their belief is.

wow! Admiration just skyrocketed!!

[EddieB.Good]

Originally Posted by Oldhag1

All immigration unnaturally deflates wages, just ask any tech person who has lost their job to an H-2b hire. The mantra that Americans aren’t willing to do certain jobs is simply untrue, the truth is Americans aren’t willing to do those jobs for the low wage they are being offered. There is a reason that America’s greatest middle class growth occurred during a time period when we had our most stringent immigration laws and enforcement. Immigration, particularly unchecked illegal immigration, is a bonanza for the more affluent members of our society, it is devastating to America’s most economically vulnerable citizens, in particular black males.

Oh, and that risen minimum wage definitely motivates more under-the-table hiring.

Increased minimum wage + increased illegal immigration tolerance = higher African-American unemployment rates.

No. Supply of labor deflates wages, hence setting minimum wage to counter that at the lower end of spectrum.

There's so much empirical evidence that Americans won't do the jobs that routinely get filled by illegals, including living in small towns & rural America. Agriculture & farms have had a labor shortage for going on a DECADE. Basic labor economics tell you that when companies have a labor shortage, they actively recruit. How is the agriculture industry suffering a labor shortage, if there are Americans who want to work the fields? There is NOTHING stopping them from having a two-tier pay structure for documented/Americans vs illegal labor, yet they haven't been abe to fix this for almost a DECADE. How is that possible w/ so many Americans who want to work the fields?

Originally Posted by bu2

You don't comprehend at all.

If employers need to pay higher because of a lower supply of labor, that is a good thing. An artificially high wage that creates unemployment is a bad thing.

Democrats do not understand economics.

The cost of labor is the same whether it's from min wage increase or something else. No company is going to pass up offsetting that labor cost b/c it came from market pressure vs gov't regulation.

Originally Posted by King_Henry

Theres a difference between the market setting wages and the government. Conservatives support one and generally dont support the other.

No there isn't. The ag industry isn't going to absorb a cost of labor just b/c it came from market pressure vs an increased min wage. The net effect to their bottom line is the same, and they are going to address it the same regardless.

Originally Posted by Oldglory

Many blue-collared jobs can't be automated, duh. Fewer people in the work force means higher wages. The more people in the work force means lower wages.

I expect the employers to pay a fair wage to Americans and not break the law by hiring illegal aliens. If they can't stay afloat without breaking the law then they need to go out of business. They just pass the social costs of their illegal workers on to the taxpayer anyway.

He says as more manufacturing jobs rely on robots who are programmed to the jobs that used to be done by line assembly. Lol... ok.

Originally Posted by goducks93

Say good bye to the american agro industry.

Yep

[Sprawling_Homeowner]

Originally Posted by newdixiegirl

You know, the issue of illegal immigration isn't one that only conservatives care about.

I'm a liberal (and a legal immigrant, now a citizen), and I, too, want mass illegal immigration stopped. I add the term "mass" to that sentence, because I don't think we can ever stop it completely. There are just too many people hell-bent on entering illegally and too few people and other resources to put an end to it.

Yes, conservatives speak with forked tongue about this, but so do liberals: they want to allow people to illegally enter and remain in the country because they (rightfully) care about how the US treats people, and because they feel illegal immigrants are entitled to a better life.

Yet, 11 million+ illegal immigrants, with tens of thousands of others attempting to coming every month, absolutely DO suppress wages, which then affects the standards of living of many Americans.

Plus, as long as mass illegal immigration occurs, the US will never have universal healthcare, which every other advanced country DOES have. But what every other advanced country doesn't have is a continuous, uncontrollable stream of people illegally crossing their borders.

So, liberals can't have it both ways, either: you can either continue to allow hundreds of thousands of people to enter and staying the US, or we can (maybe) have nice things like universal healthcare. You can't have it both ways. No country can.

If the pandemic had done nothing else, it has shown the world that the US healthcare system allows too many decent, hardworking, tax-paying, law-abiding citizens to fall through the cracks and either be denied access to care or face financial ruin.

Thank you for this post.

[Pilot1]

Originally Posted by SpaceB

And yet she almost certainly voted for Biden, who just gutted immigration enforcement and opened the flood gates.

I wouldn't make blanket assumptions.