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Did the homicide occur when Floyd took the fatal dose of Fentanyl? Or when he actually died from it?
It's pretty well established that Chauvin did not apply enough pressure to stop blood flow through the carotid artery, or enough to cut off the airflow through the trachea. There would have been major bruising of the neck if he had. The autopsy found none.
So, something else killed him. Tops on the list of possibilites was obviously the usually-fatal dose of Fentanyl he had in his bloodstream.
Anybody have any other possibility?
I suspect the pressure on his back by another officer, but that is rarely mentioned and I don’t have any details.
The extremists on both sides of the political spectrum are hopeless. There's no justification for what Chauvin did. Anyone want to volunteer for an experiment? I will put my knee on your carotid artery for 9 minutes. Let's see how long you last.
Chauvin is going to be convicted of manslaughter, just as he should be.
Instead of deliberately targeting the carotid artery, rather put your knee on your volunteer in the position Chauvin’s knee was on Floyd’s neck, and then see if it even presses on the carotid artery.
“Putting sufficient pressure on the neck can kill someone, but Chauvin knew that he wasn’t putting sufficient pressure to do that, the paramedic and the MMA bystanders didn’t, so he was right to ignore that advice.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmaster
You cut off this comment
“The supervising leadership of the police force testified in court that what the officer was doing was against training policy and protocol and officers are taught yearly what he was doing was dangerous.”
The
Chauvin ignored his training, department policy and protocols and someone died
Strange - I thought this neck restraint was in the Minnesota Police Department’s training manual!
Maybe this is an extreme example, but it drives home my point: guns can kill someone, but the police use them anyway.
“Putting sufficient pressure on the neck can kill someone, but Chauvin knew that he wasn’t putting sufficient pressure to do that, the paramedic and the MMA bystanders didn’t, so he was right to ignore that advice.”
Strange - I thought this neck restraint was in the Minnesota Police Department’s training manual!
Maybe this is an extreme example, but it drives home my point: guns can kill someone, but the police use them anyway.
Sadly you are incorrect. The Knee on the neck is not an approved method. Nor even then was it done with the subject being immediately placed in the side prone position to receive proper breathing function. Once subdued.
We clearly don't know WHAT Chauvin retained in his years of training. We know he attended courses and we know he clocked in and clocked out. Beyond that the trainer simply checked mark the person was in attendance.
I found no matter who here posted their research , it contributes to the discussion ( which is what this topic is about) discussing, exchanging, and yes sometimes being outright MISINFORMED. So if jojajn has taken the effort to produce information that supports his/her point of view, let it be. Accept it or don't.
I personally found some of this information enlightening .
This whole sidelining that it was an OD is a red herring. Typical to victim blame and shame .Each action and each NON action have to be weighed on this specific encounter on May 25.
But hey- Lest we forget that during the ER efforts- drugs were also introduced into the body- epinephrine is a steroid, and that can do its damage was well. Its often a risk the doctors weigh when administering. I don't think Floyd was ALIVE though even when the ER worked to revive him.
The Doctor did not say that fentynal IS the SOLE contributor to hypoxia. The devil is in the details. The Defense is tossing "smoke bombs" to cloud the jurors. Hope to heavens some can separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak. And yes this goes both ways when presenting evidence and receiving testimony.
Sadly you are incorrect. The Knee on the neck is not an approved method. Nor even then was it done with the subject being immediately placed in the side prone position to receive proper breathing function. Once subdued.
We clearly don't know WHAT Chauvin retained in his years of training. We know he attended courses and we know he clocked in and clocked out. Beyond that the trainer simply checked mark the person was in attendance.
I found no matter who here posted their research , it contributes to the discussion ( which is what this topic is about) discussing, exchanging, and yes sometimes being outright MISINFORMED. So if jojajn has taken the effort to produce information that supports his/her point of view, let it be. Accept it or don't.
I personally found some of this information enlightening .
This whole sidelining that it was an OD is a red herring. Typical to victim blame and shame .Each action and each NON action have to be weighed on this specific encounter on May 25.
But hey- Lest we forget that during the ER efforts- drugs were also introduced into the body- epinephrine is a steroid, and that can do its damage was well. Its often a risk the doctors weigh when administering. I don't think Floyd was ALIVE though even when the ER worked to revive him.
The Doctor did not say that fentynal IS the SOLE contributor to hypoxia. The devil is in the details. The Defense is tossing "smoke bombs" to cloud the jurors. Hope to heavens some can separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak. And yes this goes both ways when presenting evidence and receiving testimony.
Chauvin has at least 17 use of force complaints filed against him, so presumably he has had some guidance from superiors on use of force in response to these complaints.
There is nothing wrong with you giving your take on the matter. Asserting professional authority is something else. No one here is soliciting your expertise; otherwise, there is no discussion.
What?
While you may prefer discussions in which no one has a clue what they are talking about, not everyone shares your enthusiasm for random nonsense and total BS.
Did the homicide occur when Floyd took the fatal dose of Fentanyl? Or when he actually died from it?
It's pretty well established that Chauvin did not apply enough pressure to stop blood flow through the carotid artery, or enough to cut off the airflow through the trachea. There would have been major bruising of the neck if he had. The autopsy found none.
So, something else killed him. Tops on the list of possibilites was obviously the usually-fatal dose of Fentanyl he had in his bloodstream.
Anybody have any other possibility?
Yes. Testimony & supporting evidence, so far, suggests Positional Asphyxia:
Quote:
Positional asphyxia, also known as postural asphyxia, is a form of asphyxia which occurs when one's position prevents them from breathing adequately. Positional asphyxia also may be a result of the policing technique known as "prone restraint", used by police, corrections, military, or health care staff.[1] People may die from positional asphyxia accidentally, when the mouth and nose are blocked, or where the chest may be unable to fully expand.
A 1992 article in [i]The American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology[i][2] and a 2000 article in The American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology said that multiple cases have been associated with the hogtie or hobble prone restraint position.
The New York Police Department’s guidelines, explaining protocols for mitigating in-custody deaths, were published in a 1995 Department of Justice bulletin on "positional asphyxia."[3][4] The NYPD recommended that, “[a]s soon as the subject is handcuffed, get him off his stomach. Turn him on his side or place him in a seated position."[3][4] A 1996 FBI bulletin said that many law enforcement and health personnel were being taught to avoid restraining people face-down or to do so only for a very short period of time.[1]
Resuscitation of persons who exhibit cardiac arrest following restraint has proven to be difficult, according to a 1995 article in Annals of Emergency Medicine. Even in cases where the subject was in the immediate care of paramedics, resuscitation has failed and the subject has died.[5]
... A 2002 review of the literature published in the British Journal of Forensic Practice said that restraining a person in a face-down position is likely to cause greater restriction of breathing than restraining a person face-up.[9]
A 2008 article in Medicine, Science and the Law said that the way the subject is restrained can also increase the risk of death, for example kneeling or otherwise placing weight on the subject and particularly any type of restraint hold around the subject's neck. Research measuring the effect of restraint positions on lung function suggests that restraint which involves bending the restrained person or placing body weight on them has more effect on their breathing than face-down positioning alone.[10]
In the United States, there were 16 cases reported deaths in police custody between 1998 and 2009 in which restraint was a "direct or contributory factor to the death." The investigation into the deaths resulted in a 2010 report tabled by the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC).[11]
Minnesota Lawmakers Ban Police Chokeholds, 'Warrior-Style Training'
Quote:
Minnesota lawmakers have voted to ban police use of chokeholds, part of a law enforcement accountability measure sparked by the Memorial Day killing of George Floyd, who died after a Minneapolis police offer knelt on his neck for nearly nine minutes.
The bill's most high-profile sections would place new limits on police use of force and prohibit "warrior-style training" — which encourages officers to act aggressively in a way that "deemphasizes the value of human life or constitutional rights," the legislation states.
If Gov. Tim Walz signs the measure as expected, many of the changes would take effect immediately.
The governor praised the legislation on Tuesday as "a critical step toward justice."
“The supervising leadership of the police force testified in court that what the officer was doing was against training policy and protocol and officers are taught yearly what he was doing was dangerous.”
The
Chauvin ignored his training, department policy and protocols and someone died
The toxicology report of George Floyd showed that he had 11ng/cc concentration of fentanyl in his blood stream, as well as metabolites of fentanyl. The officers at the scene reported that Floyd had "froth coming from his mouth", which is consistent with pulmonary edema caused by a massive ingestion of fentanyl. In addition, his autopsy showed marked pulmonary edema, consistent with a fentanyl overdose.
I do reviews of cases for attorneys (malpractice cases for the defense) in addition to my medical practice and so have some legal exposure. Objectively, Floyd died of a drug overdose and there would have been nothing on the planet that could have saved him, except for rapid intubation and reversal of the drug with narcan.
Now FLoyd was a big man. Securing his airway, even by someone skilled in intubation, would have been difficult. In addition, he would have been very difficult to ventilate with marked pulmonary edema, and it would have been likely that he would have expired even with a skilled physician or EMT immediately securing his airway.
One would expect that justice will not be served and the arrested officers will be sacrificed on the alter of political correctness to prevent nationwide rioting. However, the fact of the matter is that Floyd died of an overdose, not the acts of the police.
I won't get into what is the evidence. You sound versed on that aspect, but as usual, "evidence" can be different even within experts in a field.
From what I read somewhere, the officer did used training given by the police department. Kneeling on an individual's neck is in the training they get, maybe not now after what happened. I do not know. I think that this could lead to a not guilty verdict because he followed guidance. If he is found guilty, maybe, the appeal could reverse it. We'll see.
From that angle, I think he could be exonerated because he followed the training he was given. Did he use common sense by kneeling on the neck for so long? Based on what I saw in the video, I think he did not show much care. However, keep in mind that Mr. Floyd was a big man. The threat that he could overpower the officer was there. There have been handcuffed people that were able to harm officers. Also, Mr. Floyd did say that he could not breath BEFORE he was put down on the ground. So his claims was there before he was on the ground. That is something that is not shown much on TV though.
This was such a horrible incident. Hopefully, as a society we will learn from this.
You have a great day.
elamigo
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