Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You can absolutely have it both ways, because a fetus is not a human person. Not existentially. Not legally. Homicide does not apply to cell masses that are not and have never been sentient, conscious, cognizant, aware, self-aware, viable, or biologically autonomous.
Actually, a fetus already is legally codified as a human: fetal homicide laws.
The law throughout the vast majority of western civilization allows for legal removal of early term fetal cell masses. It does not recognize the fetal cell mass as a human person deserving of any independent protection. Which is rational and correct.
Well, the fetal homicide laws (in nearly all US states - even blue states) does indeed codify a fetus as a human. Otherwise, it wouldn't be homicide.
Yes, it is. You can't treat people differently under the law. If women are protected from prosecution for murdering a fetus, everyone else must be protected from prosecution for doing the same, as well.
It does not say that. Perhaps you should read it:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
As I said before, a fetus being killed in a a voluntary abortion by the parent, and fetal homicide through assault, are different situations because the assault scenario would be a lot more likely to cause harm to everyone involved. Therefore, the equal protection clause shouldn't apply...so far as I can tell...and I don't know that much about legal terminology, but history has been on my side, so regardless of whether I'm right or wrong about the reasons why the Equal Protection Clause doesn't apply here, our lawmakers have agreed
that it doesn't for decades now.
Quote:
If women are protected from prosecution when they commit fetal homicide, everyone must be protected from prosecution, as well.
And based on your own perspective, if a deadbeat dad kills his fetus, he, too, may be "helping" the fetus by preventing it from being born into poverty and living a lifetime of hardship and struggle. According to your own moral compass, the father should not be prosecuted for doing so.
I've explained (to you) why that is not the case. I'll do so again:
In abortion, there is a planned death of the organism engaged in by the mother in a manner that might very well assist the organism.
In forced abortion through assault or other mean's, the mother's plans are messed up, harming both the mother and quite possibly the would-be child through it missing out on a life planned in advance for it.
As I said before, a fetus being killed in a a voluntary abortion by the parent, and fetal homicide through assault, are different situations because the assault scenario would be a lot more likely to cause harm to everyone involved.
I see you agree that the father as well as the mother has the right to kill the fetus. Either one could be perceived as "assisting" the fetus by killing it thereby preventing it from living a lifetime of hardship and struggle.
And they're not different situations. Parents are prosecuted for killing their kids just like anyone else who killed a child would be, so the same should be true of fetal homicide laws. Prosecute the parent or anyone else who kills the fetus. Otherwise, those laws are unconstitutional by creating a protected class for which the murder of another human is legal.
Actually, a fetus already is legally codified as a human: fetal homicide laws.
homicide: the murder of one human by another
You are intentionally misleading by deleting the word “person” and treating the word human as a fait accompli. That doesn’t change the fallacy that you are intentionally committing for emotional reasons. But if you want to be obtuse, I’ll play. The law correctly and rationally allows the murder of one human by another in certain circumstances. And that law is correct and moral and should stay that way. There are times that the murder of humans is correct, and abortion of early term humans is exactly that: a correct and valid circumstance. One that is correctly recognized In most of the civilized world. And will stay that way.
Well, the fetal homicide laws (in nearly all US states - even blue states) does indeed codify a fetus as a human. Otherwise, it wouldn't be homicide.
Those laws, like many laws, are irrational and wrong. We should change them when possible. The laws that protect removal of fetal cells that are far from transforming into future persons should be maintained and expanded.
It then becomes the issue of 'safe for the woman'. Morality of the decision is up to the woman, not the law. The law is protecting the health of the woman, already here, not the health of the unborn, who isn't here yet. Except, I am seeing that the woman can be held accountable for certain actions while pregnant, just not abortion.
PS:
1. it just makes more
2. safety of the women
Two reasons abortion will never be made illegal in the u.s.
If the unborn isn't here yet, there is nothing to abort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StillwaterTownie
Then how do you force women to give birth who don't want to? Confine them to prison until they're finished giving birth?
Abortion rates are actually four times higher in low-income countries where abortion is prohibited than in high-income countries where it is broadly legal. There will also be more deaths and serious medical complications due to illegal abortions.
Ever wonder why that is?
"The data shows that abortion rates are roughly the same in countries where abortion is broadly legal and in countries where it isn't. And abortion rates are actually four times higher in low-income countries where abortion is prohibited than in high-income countries where it is broadly legal."
Obviously economics/social status play a part.
One can Internet search for more data on the topic --- but that's not news.
It then becomes the issue of 'safe for the woman'. Morality of the decision is up to the woman, not the law. The law is protecting the health of the woman, already here, not the health of the unborn, who isn't here yet. Except, I am seeing that the woman can be held accountable for certain actions while pregnant, just not abortion.
PS:
1. it just makes more
2. safety of the women
Two reasons abortion will never be made illegal in the u.s.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdaelectro
I did, and it looks like Russia has the highest rate of abortions, . . . it's legal there. The majority of the third world(where it tends to be illegal) is a mystery when it comes to it though. Thats no surprise, seeing as it's hard to quantify crimes done in secret.
What 'law' is that?
_______________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
One can Internet search for more data on the topic --- but that's not news.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdaelectro
I did, and it looks like Russia has the highest rate of abortions, . . . it's legal there.
I found that, what I believe you read, I'll come back to Russia at the end of post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdaelectro
The majority of the third world(where it tends to be illegal) is a mystery when it comes to it though. Thats no surprise, seeing as it's hard to quantify crimes done in secret.
Sounds logical, however, they get their data from some where, one would have to drill down on how they quantify their findings in countries where it is illegal to have an abortion, to get a better understanding. However, I don't want to spend that much time on it --- "how many women end up seeking medical attention from botched abortions where it is illegal to have one' --- or 'how they account for skewed data'.
"Countries with the most restrictive abortion laws also have the highest rates of abortion, the study by the Guttmacher Institute found. Easier access to birth control drives down abortion rates, the report also finds."
"Unintended pregnancy rates are highest in countries that restrict abortion access and lowest in countries where abortion is broadly legal.
As a result, abortion rates are similar in countries where abortion is restricted and those where the procedure is broadly legal (i.e., where it is available on request or on socioeconomic grounds).
In analyses that exclude China and India, whose large populations skew the data, the abortion rate is actually higher in countries that restrict abortion access than in those that do not.
In countries that restrict abortion, the percentage of unintended pregnancies ending in abortion has increased during the past 30 years, from 36% in 1990–1994 to 50% in 2015–2019."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
The law is protecting the health of the woman, already here, not the health of the unborn, who isn't here yet.
However, I was thinking on in general the accomplishment of Roe V Wade and keeping the women safe by providing a safe alternative to illegal abortions.
Okay, Russia, Russia, Russia --- highest abortion rate, where it is legal ---
One can Internet search for more data on the topic --- but that's not news.
It then becomes the issue of 'safe for the woman'. Morality of the decision is up to the woman, not the law. The law is protecting the health of the woman, already here, not the health of the unborn, who isn't here yet. Except, I am seeing that the woman can be held accountable for certain actions while pregnant, just not abortion.
PS:
1. it just makes more
2. safety of the women
Two reasons abortion will never be made illegal in the u.s.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stepnking
If the unborn isn't here yet, there is nothing to abort.
Abort:
1 : to bring forth stillborn, nonviable, or premature offspring
2 : to become checked in development so as to degenerate or remain rudimentary
3 : to terminate a procedure prematurely
PS: there has to be something, before there is nothing, other wise there would be no reason to use the word.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
