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There is a ton of information that proves you wrong. That you will not accept it doesn't make it go away. I will align with science and biologists rather than someone spouting nonsense. A "protoplasmic mass" or whatever other name you wish to assign, the organism is alive. Any organism, plant or animal, is either dead or alive. There is no middle ground. Something that is alive is growing, maturing, changing. Something that is dead is lifeless, decaying. When you take something alive and terminate (take the life out of it) you have killed it. A fetus is not something to be casually discarded. You are under the guise that no secular people oppose abortion, only "religious mysticism".
Kelsey Hazzard is the president of Secular Pro-Life, which brings together people of every faith and no faith in defense of preborn children. She practices law in Florida.
The atheist’s case against abortion: respect for human rights
Kelsey HazzardOctober 19, 2017
"Millennials in the “pro-life generation” are not interested in a culture war, but simply want to save preborn children and their mothers from the tragedy of abortion." https://www.americamagazine.org/voices/kelsey-hazzardHere are the 12 to 16 week "nothingburgers" you want to "pop out". https://www.google.com/search?q=fetu...client=gws-wiz
Why don't you look at some 12 to 16 week fetal remains for a dose of abortion reality.
You will align with anyone who confirms your mystical views. That a 12-16 week old fetal mass is not a person would be obvious upon rudimentary inspection to anyone with an IQ north of 50. Which I’m sure yours is. But none of this is about reality. It’s about pushing your religious views upon others. Nothing more, nothing less.
And while there are a few irrational secularists who sign on with anti-choice because of the shared zeal of controlling others, the vast majority of secular people are pro-choice. The anti-choice movement is essentially a religious movement.
And that’s where some fantastic irony appears.
The fact that the anti-choice movement bends over backwards to incorporate “science” into their position is absolutely delicious. They delve into all this science and medical technology and all this technical argumentation to support an irrational mystical position. Then, in the next breath, they’ll call evolution an unproven theory and want to teach young-earth creationism in grade schools. Just so putridly and transparently stupid. Selective science. If it feeds our narrative, we’re all scientists. But in every other venue, “science” is not the answer and “vaccines” are unsafe, and all the rest of the patent absurdity and incoherence.
But someone mentions fetus? Screw the bible, let’s go straight to DNA.
Which is also an inverse indicator of the power of secular logic, even within mystical circles that claim to hate it. Boy they sure do love it when it can be perverted to push the agenda of controlling people!
You will align with anyone who confirms your mystical views. That a 12-16 week old fetal mass is not a person would be obvious upon rudimentary inspection to anyone with an IQ north of 50. Which I’m sure yours is. But none of this is about reality. It’s about pushing your religious views upon others. Nothing more, nothing less.
And while there are a few irrational secularists who sign on with anti-choice because of the shared zeal of controlling others, the vast majority of secular people are pro-choice. The anti-choice movement is essentially a religious movement.
And that’s where some fantastic irony appears.
The fact that the anti-choice movement bends over backwards to incorporate “science” into their position is absolutely delicious. They delve into all this science and medical technology and all this technical argumentation to support an irrational mystical position. Then, in the next breath, they’ll call evolution an unproven theory and want to teach young-earth creationism in grade schools. Just so putridly and transparently stupid. Selective science. If it feeds our narrative, we’re all scientists. But in every other venue, “science” is not the answer and “vaccines” are unsafe, and all the rest of the patent absurdity and incoherence.
But someone mentions fetus? Screw the bible, let’s go straight to DNA.
Which is also an inverse indicator of the power of secular logic, even within mystical circles that claim to hate it. Boy they sure do love it when it can be perverted to push the agenda of controlling people!
And you're going to set them free right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella
You will align with anyone who confirms your mystical views. That a 12-16 week old fetal mass is not a person would be obvious upon rudimentary inspection to anyone with an IQ north of 50.
Anti-Choice shouldn't have all the fun in utilizing science, align you're so called non-mystical view with scientists; preferably one with an IQ north of 50.
Anti-Choice shouldn't have all the fun in utilizing science, align you're so called non-mystical view with scientists; preferably one with an IQ north of 50.
Reason will set them free, you should try it! It's good to be the free.
Anti-Choice shouldn't have all the fun in utilizing science, align you're so called non-mystical view with scientists; preferably one with an IQ north of 50.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella
Reason will set them free, you should try it! It's good to be the free.
You will align with anyone who confirms your mystical views. That a 12-16 week old fetal mass is not a person would be obvious upon rudimentary inspection to anyone with an IQ north of 50. Which I’m sure yours is. But none of this is about reality. It’s about pushing your religious views upon others. Nothing more, nothing less.
I haven't been arguing "personhood". I have been arguing against statements such as:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella
There is no unborn.
There is a fetal protoplasmic mass that in early pregnancy is not a person and is simply removed not killed.
You don't have to be a scientist to know you don't terminate anything that has life and say it has not been killed. If you look at images of a 12 -16 week fetus and still tell me you are seeing a protoplasmic mass, that is not reality. I provided the link. I would have thought you investigated the subject you were talking about before posting. Others are not waiting for your confirmation, they can see for themselves.
Quote:
And while there are a few irrational secularists who sign on with anti-choice because of the shared zeal of controlling others, the vast majority of secular people are pro-choice. The anti-choice movement is essentially a religious movement.
So according to you, a few "irrational secularists" are anti-choice, "the vast majority of secular people are" pro-death.
Quote:
And that’s where some fantastic irony appears.
The fact that the anti-choice movement bends over backwards to incorporate “science” into their position is absolutely delicious. They delve into all this science and medical technology and all this technical argumentation to support an irrational mystical position.
What do you delve into? Isn't that what the technical aspect of human life is about...science, medical technology, technical argumentation? What do you bring to the table other than insistence there is no unborn when medical publications plus people the world over, religious and secular correctly use this common phraseology daily.
"Removed, not killed"? Look at the body parts lying in a tray after being suctioned out and try to convince yourself a fetus was not killed. But, I suppose you are right, the world is wrong.
Quote:
Then, in the next breath, they’ll call evolution an unproven theory and want to teach young-earth creationism in grade schools. Just so putridly and transparently stupid. Selective science. If it feeds our narrative, we’re all scientists. But in every other venue, “science” is not the answer and “vaccines” are unsafe, and all the rest of the patent absurdity and incoherence.
Evolution and religion are not mutually exclusive, but that is another topic. Selective science indeed. Sometimes the decision is made to ignore science. That said, science is not perfect, nor always has the answer. I question my doctor on occasion. I'm leery of drugs advertised that spend more time on disclaimers than benefits. I am aware of the various flip/flops in medical health. None of this has to do with a fetus or abortion.
There is a ton of information that proves you wrong. That you will not accept it doesn't make it go away. I will align with science and biologists rather than someone spouting nonsense. A "protoplasmic mass" or whatever other name you wish to assign, the organism is alive. Any organism, plant or animal, is either dead or alive. There is no middle ground. Something that is alive is growing, maturing, changing. Something that is dead is lifeless, decaying. When you take something alive and terminate (take the life out of it) you have killed it. A fetus is not something to be casually discarded. You are under the guise that no secular people oppose abortion, only "religious mysticism".
Kelsey Hazzard is the president of Secular Pro-Life, which brings together people of every faith and no faith in defense of preborn children. She practices law in Florida.
The atheist’s case against abortion: respect for human rights
Kelsey HazzardOctober 19, 2017
"Millennials in the “pro-life generation” are not interested in a culture war, but simply want to save preborn children and their mothers from the tragedy of abortion." https://www.americamagazine.org/voices/kelsey-hazzardHere are the 12 to 16 week "nothingburgers" you want to "pop out". https://www.google.com/search?q=fetu...client=gws-wiz
Why don't you look at some 12 to 16 week fetal remains for a dose of abortion reality.
So I did. And so I can see why voters in Ireland agreed that abortion on demand should only be allowed up to the 12th week. The Irish wisely came to find out that a ban on all abortion didn't work, and we would be quite inane fools not to learn something from their vote to repeal the ban on all abortion by 68 to 32%.
If you read the bold in the above and below quotes of yours, you will see what I'm getting at. Those are contradictory statements no matter how you wish to spin them.
My statements that you consider contradictory are the following:
The difference between the military killing things and abortion is when the military does it, it causes harm. If you were aborted, on the other hand, you'd still be here...more or less...or at least the consciousness that is the most important part of you. It would merely exist in other people. You would still exist...just not trivial, unique, genetic traits.
Those are not contradictory statements. You would still exist, in the sense that your consciousness still exists in other people...in the sense that there are other people calling themselves "I" as well. Now, you would not still exist in all contexts...only in the one's I've been talking about. You would still exist in the context of your consciousness still existing without your unique genetic traits and memories though.
The context in which your consciousness would still exist is in the sense that there are other people still referring to themselves as "I," experiencing the same feelings you felt at joy and pleasure and pain, etc.
The reason why I mentioned that was to point out that the only thing dividing you from other people are those memories and relationships that are lost when we die, and fetuses don't have those built up anyway in any form they care about...and therefore their deaths won't matter to them unless suffering is involved.
Quote:
Here is another.
Again...you're confusing abstract thinking for contradictory statements.
The statements you consider contradictory in this example are the following:
The aborted will not want anything...because they no longer exist.
and
The fact that someone would still be thinking of themselves as "Me" though, means you'd still have everything you want out of life, even if you were aborted.
Someone would still be thinking of themselves as "me" in the sense that people would still be thinking of themselves as "me." I doesn't matter who. Your self-awareness would still continue...just without your unique genetic traits. Here, I'm trying to get the same point across I was trying to get across in your above example.
Look at things this way...((and I believe I've stated this example before, but I'm talking about some rather confusing things so this will inevitably be difficult for people to comprehend what I'm talking about, no matter how good of a job I do trying to explain it (and I think I am doing about as good of a job as I can in explaining it...or at least I've put a lot of effort into attempting to explain it)): There is basically no difference between me dying and any other human still living on and me developing a severe case of amnesia that permanently wipes out almost all of my memories, but still living on. In both cases, my memories are lost, and sentience still lives on...and there's no reason why we shouldn't call anyone's sentience my sentience, if all we're talking about is sentience without my unique genetic traits and relationships and memories.
In other words, in some very valid contexts, you are provably my afterlife...just without my memories and relationships, if you're still here after I die.
Why that's relevant to this thread is that fetuses don't lose those memories or relationships that make us traditionally view our lives as discontinuing when we lose them. Unless they experience painful or unpleasant deaths, their ability to experience existence is the only thing they lose from death...but even that continues on in other people so it doesn't matter. Their sentience still exists, in that sense...just with a new set of genetic traits...so they lose nothing from death, unless death is unpleasant.
Quote:
They don't want anything, but...
I had originally posted the following, to which you responded with the statement below it The fact that someone would still be thinking of themselves as "Me" though, means you'd still have everything you want out of life, even if you were aborted.
here V
Quote:
This proxy "Me" who is alive has no relationship with an aborted fetus or vice versa.
Which doesn't matter. The point is that nothing will be lost from abortions, except for potential feelings of pain, that don't still exist after the abortion happens.
Just try to think of anything at all, aside from potential pain that could be lost through an abortion that's relevant to the fetus. You won't be able to think of anything accurate. The loss of the life of the fetus won't matter to the fetus. It doesn't understand, or care about, the concept of life. Life is a neutral state to it, rather than something it craves to continue. It loses no relationships. It has no dreams or goals it would be disappointed about not getting to achieve.
Quote:
You think a fetus would prefer a painless death rather than birth? Was that what you thought when you were in the womb? You believe that is what most people thought when they were in the womb? Is that your 'proof'?
I provided what I considered proof already. Here it is. I'll post it a second time. It was in the very post you quoted in this post of yours' I'm now responding to:
Imagine you're in a womb. You know nothing about the world around you. You don't understand the concept of death. Death, to you, would merely be a deep form of sleep. You are destined to emerge out of a hole, or die. Dying might hurt, or it might be just the equivalent (as far as you're concerned) of drifting off into a deeper sleep. However...going out through that hole is definitely going to be unpleasant, and the only thing your mind might be able to comprehend is that suffering is unpleasant.
Therefore, if we're going by what fetuses most likely would be best described as "wanting" it would probably, nearly always, be painless death as soon as possible, rather than going out that hole.
On a side note...I appreciate you talking to me about this so much. You're not asking dumb questions. You're making intelligent statements...it's just that we're dealing with some very abstract issues that most people are bound to not understand well at first, or even if they do, they're going to inevitably have some trouble comprehending people who try to explain these issues.
I've got nothing for all of this inhuman tribble --- I can't even describe it any more than to just call it tribble. Apparently some people have a lot of time on their hands to waist and waist it, you have --- If you could only hear yourself. I take that back --- it's actually a good thing you can't.
I have typed no "tribble." I have, rather, made a series of extremely patient, intelligent comments. I do this because I have a moral obligation to assist others. This is not a waste of time. I see things few other people appear to see. I intend to show these things to people. It's the best way I can think of to help people...better than doing charities or joining the military or anything else, at least that's how I see my comments on this thread. I typically make comments for my own entertainment...but not on this thread. I post on this thread for humanitarian reasons.
So I did. And so I can see why voters in Ireland agreed that abortion on demand should only be allowed up to the 12th week. The Irish wisely came to find out that a ban on all abortion didn't work, and we would be quite inane fools not to learn something from their vote to repeal the ban on all abortion by 68 to 32%.
I was pleasantly shocked by Ireland’s decision to reverse its abortion ban. I have looked at all the pictures and propaganda and I still think 16-20 weeks would be fine. I’m still looking at pictures of entities that are non-experiential, non-conscious, non-sentient and non-viable. It is rational to allow the removal of this tissue. While technically “alive”, these are not “lives” in the larger sense. It’s still a potential, not an actual.
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