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If the current republican party had to rely on the people that actually benefited from its policies they would never get elected. I think its rather interesting from a strategic point of view that they have gotten so many people to vote against their economic best interest by creating side issues that really don't matter to focus on instead.
The strategy has worked brilliantly, but its a bit surprising that it has worked so well. Why are so many people willing to vote against their best interest?
Like what?
Taxes?
The tax structure right now is more favorable to poor people than it was under Clinton.
-The current tax structure has a bracket for people making less than 8,000/year. the tax is 10%.
No such tax bracket existed under Clinton.
-I consider myself middle class and my tax bracket in 2008 is 25%. In 2000 the money I make (adjusted) would have had me in the 28% bracket.
-In 2008 the bottom 50% of wage earners in this nation paid 2.99% of all taxes collected.
In 1995 the bottom 50% of wage earners in the nation paid 4.6% of all taxes paid.
So again, I ask you, in regards to your original post. What are you talking about?
In my opinion many republicans/conservatives vote against their own interests because Republicans have gotten good at getting people to identify with what they are NOT, and not with what they ARE.
Examples:
All welfare recipients are lazy, and;
All welfare recipients vote Democratic, therefore;
You need to vote Republican because you are not a lazy, welfare recipient.
(Never mind that all too many of these people are in need of a safety net of some sort, and that the stereotype of zillions of lazy welfare recipients is unfounded)
All educated people are elitist;
All elitists think you are stupid, and;
All elitists vote Democratic, therefore;
You need to vote Republican because you are not stupid or an elitist.
(Never mind the one saying this is educated and probably thinks they are stupid to use this tactic)
Others? -Guns, religion, morals, pretty much all the Republican points.
This negative stereotyping has worked very well and gets poor, rural people to vote for republicans over and over although they will see no tangible or intangible benefit from doing so, other than the feeling of belonging to an anti-Democratic club. Democrats need to de a better job of countering these tactics.
No offense, but that is not what I get from traditional "republican" examples. That is more of a description I would expect from either those who deviously oppose the other sides views or those who on the side ignorantly summarize the republican views.
That is in terms of what the position actually proclaims to support. As to what they do support, well both sides fall pretty far from reaching their proclaimed mark.
Just ask all of those REPUBLICANS who were shouting "FOUR MORE YEARS" back in November 2004, if they are happy with the way things are now?
Our ECONOMY is in the toilet.
We are now in the worst RECESSION since the Great Depression of 1930's.
After 5 years, the WAR in Iraq is still going full force. Thousands more U.S. troops have died since 2004.
In 2008, our military is now BACK in Afghanistan since Bush didn't do enough to keep that under control back in 2001. Instead Bush moved most of our military out of Afghanistan, and into Iraq, to start a completely unnecessary war.
After SEVEN YEARS ... Bin Laden STILL HASN'T BEEN CAPTURED!
Bush's APPROVAL RATING is currently around 20%.
YES ... REPUBLICANS do VOTE AGAINST their best interest !!!
However, if Bush were running again in 2008, they'd once again be shouting "FOUR MORE YEARS"!
Yep. All these countries ahead of us have universal healthcare and gobs of social programs. Remember that when some poor white GOPer is rambling on about how social programs just make things worse....LOL
Nixon, and scores of right wingers after him have taken gullible GOP middle class voters for a ride.
So you think that the fact that black illigitimacy has risen from 35% in the 60's to over 70% now shows the success of social programs?
The two parties divide on a lot of important non-economic issues, as well, and it is easy to persuade people to vote against their economic interests if it strokes their psyches to do so. Voters in red states are often pro-life, flag-waving, military, anti-hippie, G-rated. tough-on-crime, Baptist gun nuts, and they can always ask for an increase in their credit card limit if the war on Liberals has an economic price tag.
And voters in blue states are also often pro-life, but only when it pertains to executing murderers and rapists. Babies gestating quietly in the womb are akin to bowel movements to them.
In my opinion many republicans/conservatives vote against their own interests because Republicans have gotten good at getting people to identify with what they are NOT, and not with what they ARE.
Examples:
All welfare recipients are lazy, and;
All welfare recipients vote Democratic, therefore;
You need to vote Republican because you are not a lazy, welfare recipient.
(Never mind that all too many of these people are in need of a safety net of some sort, and that the stereotype of zillions of lazy welfare recipients is unfounded) All educated people are elitist; All elitists think you are stupid, and; All elitists vote Democratic, therefore; You need to vote Republican because you are not stupid or an elitist.
(Never mind the one saying this is educated and probably thinks they are stupid to use this tactic)
Others? -Guns, religion, morals, pretty much all the Republican points.
This negative stereotyping has worked very well and gets poor, rural people to vote for republicans over and over although they will see no tangible or intangible benefit from doing so, other than the feeling of belonging to an anti-Democratic club. Democrats need to de a better job of countering these tactics.
Pardon me, but, doesn't the fact that you seem to think that poor, rural people can't think intelligently for themselves actually prove this point?
The obvious fact that democracy does not work and has been proven to be an abject failure illuminates the difficulties associated with trying to weigh the good of society against the individuals. Who can we trust to articulate the good of society?
Calling something an obvious fact makes it neither. The greatest nation in the history of the world is a democratic republic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heracles
In my opinion many republicans/conservatives vote against their own interests because Republicans have gotten good at getting people to identify with what they are NOT, and not with what they ARE.
Examples:
All welfare recipients are lazy, and;
All welfare recipients vote Democratic, therefore;
You need to vote Republican because you are not a lazy, welfare recipient.
(Never mind that all too many of these people are in need of a safety net of some sort, and that the stereotype of zillions of lazy welfare recipients is unfounded)
All educated people are elitist;
All elitists think you are stupid, and;
All elitists vote Democratic, therefore;
You need to vote Republican because you are not stupid or an elitist.
(Never mind the one saying this is educated and probably thinks they are stupid to use this tactic)
Others? -Guns, religion, morals, pretty much all the Republican points.
This negative stereotyping has worked very well and gets poor, rural people to vote for republicans over and over although they will see no tangible or intangible benefit from doing so, other than the feeling of belonging to an anti-Democratic club. Democrats need to de a better job of countering these tactics.
Or could it be that one party recognizes the greatness of our country and sees no need to make dramatic changes while the other party caters to all the special interest groups that want to make changes. Then the first party is forced to highlight the negative consequences of those changes. You don't have to be for changing for the sake of change alone unless you believe our country sucks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by padcrasher
Gosh, I disagree with about everything you said. I'm on the other side of the fence. Me and the majority of Americans.
Hey I know! Let's vote about in November and whoever wins can go about doing it their way??
Elections show which side people agree with. Forums like this expose which side is correct. They are not always the same side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbob
You're absolutely right!!! That's what I've been telling people at work who are lower down the food chain for years.
The Republican's have relied on 'wedge' issues like: gay marriage, gun ownership, who's patriotic/who's not, fears of socialism... to pit us against each other on social issues, while at the same time they create economic policy that benefits the very richest and screws the average working person.
Fear of socialism is a wedge issue on par with gay marriage and gun ownership? that is only valid if Democrats truly want socialism...problem is that the polls have shown that most Americans are against it. The Dems can remove the issue by denying that they lean to wards socialism, or they can continue to disguise the fact by such means as labeling a wealth redistribution program as a tax cut.
Speaking of labeling.. Who labels anyone anti illegal immigration as a racist?
Who labels anyone who is anti socialist as a fascist?
Who labels anyone who is wealthy as greedy?
Who labels anyone against gay marriage a homophobe?
When it comes to wedge issues and which position is politically correct the Dems do a pretty good job.
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The Bush recovery -which ended in 2007 -is the first on record where the average American's real income (adjusted for inflation) was lower than at the peak of the prior economic recovery.
I know it's not politically correct to bring this up but we were attacked in 2001 and have been at war every since. I think in such a circumstance we are doing pretty darn good economically.
Quote:
I tell my co-workers, who complain about the company's health plan, that if McCain is elected, they probably won't have to worry about the company plan - it won't exist any longer. They can then try to get good family coverage for a paltry $5000 (then I tell them that the company policy currently costs about $13,000!!!).
You forgot about the part where you can go to any state. We own a small business and pay about 3,000 per year per employee. That rate would be better if our pool was larger. Under the McCain plan, you could get your insurance from our state. BTW I am not voting for McCain... just want to get the facts out.
I think it is the dems who vote against their own best interest. They see a promise of a lower tax that will be covered by only the super wealthy even though that group is paying such a disproportionate share that additional increases threaten our economy. If the economy collapses, everyone suffers and your vote was not in your best interest.
The question itself shows a lack of ability to see the big picture. The question should be which candidate is best for the Country.. then that person gives everyone the best opportunity to do best for themselves.
All of us who have endured the Bush presidency know painfully well what Republicans are in America. It really isn't political but rather pathological. People like Republicans are found all over the world but most conspicuously in less educated & often authoritarian countries [Middle East].
The concept of the "common good" makes no sense to a Republican because that means sharing with others. These are the good citizens who go to church every Sunday and revival times handing over their money to hacks & then complain that they have to drive by homeless people\ the riff raff. Republicans don't like school bonds\ taxes even if there kids attend public school [its the teacher's fault that their kids are dumb]. They are more interested in what's being taught then a real education\ inserting "creationism" myths & not trusting science & demanding classroom prayer. Taxes for public services are also on the hate list for Republicans who are more interested in removing books than building libraries. But when it comes to a personal lose due to fire\ tornado\ hurricane\ earthquake Republicans are the first to demand their rights to services & complain that the fire department was too late & sue the city [even though they voted down every attempt to properly fund vital public services.
Republicans are weirdly intrigued by other people's sexual lives & spend hours & money promoting repressive laws against gays yet have some of the most lude people involved in prostitution\ drugs [politicians\ preachers]. Republicans are hypocrites of the worst kind who hold their Bibles in one hand & a flag in the other while sending off our soldiers to fight a foolish war & then turn their backs on the wounded by denying them proper medical care.
These are not Americans who wine\dine Saudi princes & hold their hands like Bush or Cheney providing consultation with Arab oil families. They are selfish corporate thieves to eagerly take from America & avoid taxes at all costs.
Republicans are sub-Americans who represent the worst of our nation & thankfully are exposed to the world and leave our White House like weasels scurrying away to their holes.
just ask all of those republicans who were shouting "four more years" back in november 2004, if they are happy with the way things are now?
Our economy is in the toilet.
thanks to the democrats and clinton
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we are now in the worst recession since the great depression of 1930's.
thanks to the democrats and clinton
Quote:
after 5 years, the war in iraq is still going full force. Thousands more u.s. Troops have died since 2004.
thanks to both parties.
Quote:
in 2008, our military is now back in afghanistan since bush didn't do enough to keep that under control back in 2001. Instead bush moved most of our military out of afghanistan, and into iraq, to start a completely unnecessary war.
this is the only one that is true.
Quote:
after seven years ... Bin laden still hasn't been captured!
we dont know where he is,
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bush's approval rating is currently around 20%.
because of the war, that both parties are responsible.
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yes ... Republicans do vote against their best interest !!!
you still havent made a valid point.
Quote:
however, if bush were running again in 2008, they'd once again be shouting "four more years"!
i dont think so.
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