Israel kills over 140 Palestinians in one day! (ethical, parties, history)
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Maybe some militaries use dehumanizing tactics. As a combat vet I can tell you no such programs were forced upon me......
I will tell you however I was amused when they show islamic radicals blowing themselves up with their own weapons. Why? Because I know the usual targets are unarmed civilians.
I am no great fan of Israel. I respect Israel, I respect the people. I can not however follow our govs example and support them no matter what they do. I for one understand that Israels priorities and ours are often polar opposites. I understand that just because Israel says that they are our friend doesn't mean that they behave as such. Quite often they do not. Friends don't steal secrets and sell them to our enemies.
In this latest outbreak however Israel is completely justified in their actions.
There was a recent study done by the military that showed that during WWII, that only 40% of soldiers actually shot at the enemy. Human nature is such that most civilian people have no desire to kill other human beings. Now the US military has to my knowledge never taught dehumanization, but it most certainly allows for it and even encourages its use. In WWII they were "Krauts and nips" not people, in Vietnam they were "sl*pes and go*ks", not people, and today in Iraq and Afghanistan, they are referred to as "Hagi's" or here on the home front, many folks just call them dune coons, rag heads, etc... anything but people.
Just like all the old movies were the former Soviets referred to American's as the capitalist pigs, or many of our adversaries refer to us as imperialist pigs, heathens, infidels, etc...
I can completely understand why soldiers do this as it is a rationalization, because to look down a gun barrel and see Said Al Salam eating dinner and helping with his kids homework would make the job next to impossible for all but the psychopathic.
The current US military style of react-point-shoot without thought is believed to be the most effective and the US soldier rates of hits on target are in the 90% range. What isn't spoken of is what occurs in some soldiers minds at the end of the day when they look back at their actions. They were trained to react quickly and to process targeting information without rationalization but being human and eating dinner at night, a review of the day leaves a fair number with troubling thoughts that last a life time.
No, it is not photo shop and if you google "bomb signing Israeli children" you will not only get several other pictures you will also get several news articles to which I would suggest you read the one from Haaretz in Israel, condemning this behavior.
Here's the story behind the pictures as told by the photographer who took them.
"Kiryat Shmona has been under constant bombardment from South Lebanon since the first day of the conflict. It was a ghost town, explained Shelly. There was not a single person on the streets and all the businesses were closed. The residents who had friends, family or money for alternate housing out of missile range had left, leaving behind the few who had neither the funds nor connections that would allow them to escape the missiles crashing and booming on their town day and night. The noise was terrifying, people were dying outside, the kids were scared out of their minds and they had been told over and over that some man named Nasrallah was responsible for their having to cower underground for days on end.
On the day that photo was taken, the girls had emerged from the underground bomb shelters for the first time in five days. A new army unit had just arrived in the town and was preparing to shell the area across the border. The unit attracted the attention of twelve photojournalists - Israeli and foreign. The girls and their families gathered around to check out the big attraction in the small town - foreigners. They were relieved and probably a little giddy at being outside in the fresh air for the first time in days. They were probably happy to talk to people. And they enjoyed the attention of the photographers.
Apparently one or some of the parents wrote messages in Hebrew and English on the tank shells to Nasrallah. "To Nasrallah with love," they wrote to the man whose name was for them a devilish image on television - the man who mockingly told Israelis, via speeches that were broadcast on Al Manar and Israeli television, that Hezbollah was preparing to launch even more missiles at them. That he was happy they were suffering.
"
So there you have it. This was an exercise in letting off steam by writing Hezbollah leader Nasrallah's name on some rockets. It was a one-off incident, and probably in poor taste. The fact that some Israeli's condemned the act says plenty.
Think you'll ever hear a Palestinian denounce teaching their children to hate Jews and the western world?
Well there you go, it was basically an act of self-preservation - albeit a fairly aggressive and extreme one. So to go back to your metaphor, what if the people of central Chicago were killing and bombing your families in outer Chicago? Would the wall be more justified then? Anyway, thanks for the rest of your response... very interesting stuff, and I'm learning a lot from this thread!
Well again, as in the tale of this conflict, nothing is so easy as saying, "that's the cause or reason"
The idea and subsequent construction of the wall was in response to the first Intifada (war of stones) so you can say it was in response to something which is true in part. As if we look at what set off the first Intifada that is attributed back to December 1987, when an Israeli army tank transporter ran into a group of Palestinians from Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza Strip, killing four and injuring seven. So Israel inadvertently set off already rising tensions due to land annexation and so began the first Intifada, to which then the response by Palestinians was rising numbers of suicide bombings, to which the Israeli response was to build a wall and on and on it goes.
As to applying that metaphor I used for Sanrene in a more general manner, well...
If I were the person inside those walls, then I could say it was a terrorist and barbaric act that a wall was build which forced me to fight in the first place. If I were the one building the wall, I could say that I built it to contain the violent people inside the wall who are terrorist and barbaric and deserved to be inside a wall. So, it all depends on which side of the wall you are on. In any event, if one side or the other wanted a wall, then they are certainly free to give it a whirl, but just don't expect me to be happy when I'm forced to pay for it even if I oppose any walls in the first place.
There was a recent study done by the military that showed that during WWII, that only 40% of soldiers actually shot at the enemy. Human nature is such that most civilian people have no desire to kill other human beings. Now the US military has to my knowledge never taught dehumanization, but it most certainly allows for it and even encourages its use. In WWII they were "Krauts and nips" not people, in Vietnam they were "sl*pes and go*ks", not people, and today in Iraq and Afghanistan, they are referred to as "Hagi's" or here on the home front, many folks just call them dune coons, rag heads, etc... anything but people.
Just like all the old movies were the former Soviets referred to American's as the capitalist pigs, or many of our adversaries refer to us as imperialist pigs, heathens, infidels, etc...
I can completely understand why soldiers do this as it is a rationalization, because to look down a gun barrel and see Said Al Salam eating dinner and helping with his kids homework would make the job next to impossible for all but the psychopathic.
The current US military style of react-point-shoot without thought is believed to be the most effective and the US soldier rates of hits on target are in the 90% range. What isn't spoken of is what occurs in some soldiers minds at the end of the day when they look back at their actions. They were trained to react quickly and to process targeting information without rationalization but being human and eating dinner at night, a review of the day leaves a fair number with troubling thoughts that last a life time.
I don't agree with all of this , but much is true.
The US Army teaches 'do what you have to do" , and (not but) the guy you wounded and treated decently last year might be the guy who saves your life this year.
Or , if he's dead ( and you're alive ) his cousin might save you.
Aim center of mass. Fire until the danger is over.
Do what you have to do , but don't forget who you are , don't forget where you come from.
War is short , peace is long.
Think you'll ever hear a Palestinian denounce teaching their children to hate Jews and the western world?
Yes it is a rationalization. Since one person did bad then we are justified for doing the same. The Islamic militants were wrong for attacking them and they were wrong for responding in kind because in both attacks, many civilians ended up dead who had no say.
As to Palestinians denouncing such terrorist acts, I'm sure. Are you saying that every Palestinian is a terrorist, or will be a terrorist?
Here are just a few Muslims who have denounced terrorism and terrorist and I'll quote one of my favorite parts.
Quote:
So far, the few Muslims who choose to speak up against militant extremist Islam have faced threats of violence and accusations of being anti-Islam. Even members of this Coalition face threats as they carry out their work. In effect, the message disseminated by radical Muslims is that merely discussing Islamic terrorism is to be construed as an attack on Islam.
Issues: Free Muslims Coalition
<G>, that almost sounds like right here in America. If a person here speaks up denouncing the acts of Islam, Israel or the US, then accusations of being an antisemitic terrorist sympathizer abound. In fact, I bet I could find a few instances in this very thread and probably on this very page.
Muslims Denounce Terrorism | Change the Story (http://www.changethestory.net/?q=content/muslims-denounce-terrorism - broken link)
Quote:
Muslims, and many Christians and Jews who have worked for peace and interfaith understanding, have felt frustrated that many Americans seem to repeatedly ask why Muslims don’t “speak out and condemn the terrorists,” when in fact they have done so constantly. Unfortunately, these proclamations typically receive little media coverage, and often go unnoticed in the public square.
Yes it is a rationalization. Since one person did bad then we are justified for doing the same. The Islamic militants were wrong for attacking them and they were wrong for responding in kind because in both attacks, many civilians ended up dead who had no say.
As to Palestinians denouncing such terrorist acts, I'm sure. Are you saying that every Palestinian is a terrorist, or will be a terrorist?
Here are just a few Muslims who have denounced terrorism and terrorist and I'll quote one of my favorite parts.
Issues: Free Muslims Coalition
<G>, that almost sounds like right here in America. If a person here speaks up denouncing the acts of Islam, Israel or the US, then accusations of being an antisemitic terrorist sympathizer abound. In fact, I bet I could find a few instances in this very thread and probably on this very page.
Muslims Denounce Terrorism | Change the Story (http://www.changethestory.net/?q=content/muslims-denounce-terrorism - broken link)
I have and what I see are some Muslim groups that have a desire to be progressive and modern and an Islamic reformation. However not all Muslims are open to a reformation just as all Muslims are not terrorist.
A quick look at their positions page and one thing that should surprise many is this quote.
Quote:
Another disturbing trend that is heavily propagated by extremists and accepted by many naive Arabs and Muslims is the blaming of all Muslim problems on the "Jews."
Thing about peace is that it always seems to be something the other guy must make the first move on, and no one themselves is bothering to actually look for it.
In WWII they were "Krauts and nips" not people, in Vietnam they were "sl*pes and go*ks", not people, and today in Iraq and Afghanistan, they are referred to as "Hagi's" or here on the home front, many folks just call them dune coons, rag heads, etc... anything but people.
Do you know what nicknames the Germans and Japanese had for their enemies?
Quote:
The current US military style of react-point-shoot without thought is believed to be the most effective and the US soldier rates of hits on target are in the 90% range. What isn't spoken of is what occurs in some soldiers minds at the end of the day when they look back at their actions. They were trained to react quickly and to process targeting information without rationalization but being human and eating dinner at night, a review of the day leaves a fair number with troubling thoughts that last a life time.
Yes, they are very well-trained and effective - the very best fighting force in the world. However, they are not mindless killers that just point and shoot and give no thought to what they are shooting at.
As to Palestinians denouncing such terrorist acts, I'm sure. Are you saying that every Palestinian is a terrorist, or will be a terrorist?
No, I probably should have said "Hamas", instead of Palestinian. However, now that you mention it, I see there's no chapter of the Free Muslim Coalition in Palestine. In fact, neither of those links seem to say anything about the mideast crisis or terror directed at Israel at all.
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