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djacques, you sound like my Egyption tour guide. According to Egypt, they defeated Israel. Islamic nations are famous for exagerating or fabricating information to make themselves look good.
Oh, I'll stipulate that if you want me to. But I'm not Egyptian, so I'll ask you to point out exactly which fact you think I've got wrong here, after which I will proceed to provide whatever evidence you like.
A continuing line I see throughout this thread is that is it terrible to kill the innocents...women, kids etc. and that people who do are terrible inhuman monsters.... What a change from one generation to another! a short 65 or so years ago our moms, dads, grandparents were cheering for the death of 10's of thousands of such innocents. They worked in the factories or delivered tons of bombs or bought war bonds or supported the war effort in lots of different ways. They rationalized that if those people didn't want to be bombed to death they wouldn't have let so and so get into power. What has really changed? Is your mom or grandma a cold hearted sociopath? Or do you look at your grandpa and call him a murderer because he flew a B17 or a Lancaster over Dresden? Why do some think we are any different/better than those people were or that any nation has any less right to survival the ours did back then............
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have known many lebonese and heard the beautiful things about its past. have seen the beautiful films about it.
that it should come to this.
the sky is cryin
It is a shame what the militants have done to Lebanon.
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According to Egypt, they defeated Israel.
That's the most hilarious thing I've read in a long time. The world knows that Israel kicked some A** during that conflict. And those surrounding states haven't changed much in their ability to fight - they are just as inept as ever.
A continuing line I see throughout this thread is that is it terrible to kill the innocents...women, kids etc. and that people who do are terrible inhuman monsters.... What a change from one generation to another! a short 65 or so years ago our moms, dads, grandparents were cheering for the death of 10's of thousands of such innocents.
You make a good point. I can just imagine what they would say as Berlin was reduced to rubble and thousands of civilians were killed. But that was definitely a well-used tactic back then, from both sides.
The Gulf War changed all that. Spectators have come to expect wars to be virtually bloodless, quick and precise.
When Israel can stand on her own without any assistance from anyone else and "take" what she wants, then yes, by force and strength she then has that right. I don't agree with it but I accept this as human behavior. Of course if I lay claim to someones wife and children and "make them better" then I should also have the same "right" to them, right?
Israel did pretty well by itself up until 1967. It wasn't until after the Six Day War that the US started supplying Israel with so much money and weaponry (which I think is stupid, Israel is not poor and is perfectly able to buy its own weapons).
America has a great deal of sway over Israel, who do you think is giving them billions of dollars each year, after all money talks right? Besides, Israel has no other allies in the entire world, so if the United States were to divest from Israel, she would be alone completely with no support from ANYONE in the entire world. Ever wonder why no one else in the entire world supports the actions of Israel? Because America is fully of dispensationalist who salivate over the idea of converting Jews to Christians and letting the rest burn in hell for all eternity. Personally, if I were an Israeli Jew, I would fear Christians more than anyone, after all, they have a lot more power than Arabs.
Actually Israel considers Turkey and India to allies and those nations share intelligence and develop arms with each other. And although Jordan and Israel don't exactly love each other, they have tipped each other off regarding certain terrorist groups because they are hostile towards both nations.
Oh, I have plenty of idea, it was basically rhetorical.
The Arabs were not going to launch a war in 1967. Yitzhak Rabin said so himself. Nasser didn't have the manpower. Brezhnev also called him and told him to call it off.
That's not what the record shows. Here's a reference from wikepedia.
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Originally Posted by wikipedia
On the eve of the war, Egypt massed approximately 100,000 of its 160,000 troops in the Sinai, including all of its seven divisions (four infantry, two armored and one mechanized), as well as four independent infantry and four independent armored brigades. No less than a third of them were veterans of Egypt's intervention into the Yemen Civil War and another third were reservists. These forces had 950 tanks, 1,100 APCs and more than 1,000 artillery pieces.[84]
...
Syria's army had a total strength of 75,000.[90] Jordan's army had 55,000 troops,[91] including 300 tanks, 250 of which were US M48 Patton, sizable amounts of M113 APCs, a new battalion of mechanised infantry, and a paratrooper battalion trained in the new US-built school. They also had 12 battalions of artillery and six batteries of 81 mm and 120 mm mortars.[69]
Documents captured by the Israelis from various Jordanian commands record orders from the end of May for the Hashemite Brigade to capture Ramot Burj Bir Mai'in in a night raid, codenamed "Operation Khaled". The aim was to establish a bridgehead together with positions in Latrun for an armoured capture of Lod and Ramle. The "go" codeword was Sa'ek and end was Nasser. The Jordanians also planned for the capture of Motza and Sha'alvim in the strategic Jerusalem Corridor. Motza was tasked to Infantry Brigade 27 camped near Ma'ale Adummim: "The reserve brigade will commence a nighttime infiltration onto Motza, will destroy it to the foundation, and won't leave a remnant or refugee from among its 800 residents".[69]
100 Iraqi tanks and an infantry division were readied near the Jordanian border. Two squadrons of fighter-aircraft, Hawker Hunters and MiG 21 respectively, were rebased adjacent to the Jordanian border.[69]
...On the evening of June 1, Israeli minister of defense Moshe Dayan called Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin and the GOC, Southern Command Brigadier General Yeshayahu Gavish to present plans against Egypt. Rabin had formulated a plan in which Southern Command would fight its way to the Gaza Strip and then hold the territory and its people hostage until Egypt agreed to reopen the Straits of Tiran while Gavish had a more comprehensive plan that called for the destruction of Egyptian forces in the Sinai. Rabin favored Gavish's plan, which was then endorsed by Dayan with the caution that a simultaneous offensive against Syria should be avoided.[94] ...
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Every single battle in 1967 was on Arab soil. Not counting the Israeli attack on the Liberty, that is.
Well, duh. Look up the words "preemptive strike"
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1973 was retaliation for the Israeli aggression of 1967 (and 1948-49, and 1956).
So here you have practically the entire Arab world lined up on Israel's border with the intent to wipe her off the earth, and you call that "Israeli Agression". That's rather amusing.
Big difference between fighting a nation state and fighting terrorist cells within a general population. Something Bush never understood but General Petraeus certainly does. All Israel is doing is guaranteeing new membership applications to the Hamas kiddie care program and turning world opinion against them.
Macmeal mentioned something about the difference between first and third world cultures as being responsible for world reaction. I think also the world is also considering the difference between first and third world military technology. Israel is not fighting a war, they are engaged in targeted and systemic massacre, most of their funding and weapons courtesy of Uncle Sam.
Those "Hamas animals" never would have been given the keys to the city in the first place if not for Bush's "Liberate the Middle East" campaign to make Freedom and Democracy bloom there. He pushed having the elections and Hamas won, which was no surprise to any of the intel agencies that were trying to avoid those elections. The general population resented Israel's continuing strong arm tactics and the US one sided support of Israel and they voted for the only option they thought they had left.
As they say, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. When the Taliban were fighting the Soviet Army we had no trouble creating an image of them as Rugged Freedom Fighters pushing back the Occupiers aginst all odds. Our own CIA trained them in terrorist or "freedom fighting" techniques.
It is only now that the dog is biting the master's leash that the Taliban transition from Freedom Fighter to ruthless terrorists.
It is a shame what the militants have done to Lebanon.
I blame the Palestinians the most for starting it, but the Syrians and Israelis kept it going. Once Israel and the Lebanese Forces/Phalangists broke their alliance, everyone in Lebanon began to see that Israel was a monster and again, the only one's who made excuses for them were the far-right, and most of them fled to Israel once Israel departed Lebanon (or most of it) in 2000. There are still very few pro-Israel Lebanese but no party that leads them, and there are plenty of NOT anti-Israel Lebanese who don't like Israel but for the sake of their country wish to fix relations with them as long as it gets the Palestinian refugees out of Lebanon. The Palestinians in Lebanon are very hated for what happened during the civil war.
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