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Oh boy, here we go... blacks playing the victim card.
It's not about whether or not gays have suffered as much as the blacks in America, it's about being FAIR. So if the gays can somehow suffer more, will they then be eligible for civil right movement coverage? I'd think that being locked up in the Nazi concentration camps was enough pain and suffering for them as a whole, but apparently not. Geez...
Please don't move the proverbial goalpost. You know I'm speaking about this country, our laws, and our so-called culture of oppression against gay people. Gays in 1940s Europe aren't who I'm referring to. And I think you know that.
Also, this isn't a competition, but gays shouldn't make comparisons when they know very few people (probably all of whom are already on their side) will view the situations as being the same, or even similar. Not if they're actually trying to convince anyone of anything.
Oh really? I can think of two distinct ones - first the Holocaust, where (as I mentioned earlier) the homosexuals were gathered & murdered along with the Jews and other groups they hated. Then you had the 1970s Stonewall riots, Milk/Moscone murder, etc. Have you seen the movie Milk yet? It might explain a little about the history of gay rights to you, so I'd suggest you check it out.
Huh?? I don't think that is true, by any stretch of the imagination... but whatever.
Gays didn't compose the majority, or even half, of the victims of the Holocaust. And like I said, is that exclusive to them, or were they in the same boat as everyone else at the time?
And exactly how many people were murdered during the Stonewall Riots? I could've sworn that was a revolt against discrimination by gay people. Not that it was completely one-sided chaos from the police.
And was either Milk or Moscone murdered for being gay? I mean, Milk was gay, but is that the reason he was killed? I actually have seen the movie, btw.
Why? Its simple because Blacks are looked at a lot worse than any other ethnic group in America (Illegal Mexicans are a distant second). What was racist about that Asian person's post? That was truth....
Thats the problem with us Blacks right there, we are so caught up in the I am victim role and I need handout role that anytime anyone speaks the truth about us, Its racism!
C'mon!
It ain't about being a victim, man. That I am looked at a lot worse than any other ethnic group is certainly not my fault. Why should I be cast in the same light as the proudly uneducated dope dealer down the road? That's nuts! But of course since you didn't see anything racist about the post in question, then according to you not only do I have to take personal responsibility for myself, but also for the racist ways in which others decide to judge me, whether they're warranted or not. Judging by your tone, I doubt you would extend the same kind of mandate to white folks who "didn't have anything to do with slavery and whose family never owned any slaves."
Gays didn't compose the majority, or even half, of the victims of the Holocaust. And like I said, is that exclusive to them, or were they in the same boat as everyone else at the time?
Not everyone else, no... the Nazis weren't equal-opportunity in their hate, and specifically focused on a few select groups (Jews first, followed by Gypsies, homosexuals & Poles, if I'm not mistaken). Why are you arguing that, anyway? Does the comparative number of the murdered actually matter? Not to me! Murder and hate is just that - murder and hate - and I'm not sure how it makes a difference if they weren't murdered by the millions, but rather the thousands. Somehow I doubt you'd use the same logic if we were discussing genocide based on race.
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And exactly how many people were murdered during the Stonewall Riots? I could've sworn that was a revolt against discrimination by gay people. Not that it was completely one-sided chaos from the police.
And was either Milk or Moscone murdered for being gay? I mean, Milk was gay, but is that the reason he was killed? I actually have seen the movie, btw.
See my above comments, as they also apply to these questions... and yes, the fact that Milk was openly gay & Moscone supported him had a LOT to do with their murders. To be honest, I haven't seen the movie yet (I have a screener waiting to be watched at home), so maybe they just did a really bad job - because I have read their stories, and homosexuality/gay rights were definitely motivations in their murders.
P.S. Maybe I'm getting myself all confused, but I didn't bring up Stonewall as an example of DEATHS... you said there was no "golden age of discrimination" against gays, so I mentioned that era as an example. Last time I checked, discrimination doesn't necessarily mean murder/genocide, although it of course can lead to such a thing. But the 1970s were truly when the struggle for gay rights began, and the Stonewall rights were a huge "kick-off" to that.
I think that this is a very good discussion so far....
I want to jump into this debate and argue about whether being gay is something that you were born with....
Personally I feel that it is not something you are born with and it is generally based on how you were raised and your lifestyle growing up.
I just cannot see how you were already born with a sexual perference....
Let me give a few examples. Pedophiles or men who are attracted to very young boys and girls. What if they say, "hey I can't help it, i was born this way?". Should they be given rights too? Society would say that Pedophiles were not born attracted to young boys, it was there sick choice....right? And that is a sexual perference is it not? So how is being gay any different?
Another example on how your lifestyle or how you were brought up dictates a lot in your sexual perference Geographically!
What part of the world you were born and raised in generally dictates whom you are more sexually attracted too. Am I right? I've never seen a Chinese person born and raised in China more attracted to an American. Or even Americans (for example) who grow up abroad, they are more attracted to the type of people they grew around. I believe that an American boy born and raised in Japan will more likely be attracted to Japanese women than American women.
With that said and many other examples out there, I cannot see how people can believe that you were born gay....
I didn't even bother to read the entries, I just saw the title. For me..(just me) I can't really see the correlation to black and gay. I am black, and I am gay. I didnt really experience racism. I experienced homophobia. Two totally separate entities. I wish people stop comparing how hard it is to be gay and how hard it is to be black. It doesn't make any sense to me. Quit it~! lol At least us **** can drink out of any water fountain we find LOL!! And theres no Gay Only drinking fountain! LOL! Relax, lets move on
I wasn't aware that there were segregated water fountains in this day and age.
Gays didn't compose the majority, or even half, of the victims of the Holocaust. And like I said, is that exclusive to them, or were they in the same boat as everyone else at the time?
And exactly how many people were murdered during the Stonewall Riots? I could've sworn that was a revolt against discrimination by gay people. Not that it was completely one-sided chaos from the police.
And was either Milk or Moscone murdered for being gay? I mean, Milk was gay, but is that the reason he was killed? I actually have seen the movie, btw.
Once again, blacks weren't they only people that have been slaves and they are not currently slaves so stop crying about it. Basically how you are wording your argument about the prior treatment of gays. So get over the slavery thing you big cry babies!
Please don't move the proverbial goalpost. You know I'm speaking about this country, our laws, and our so-called culture of oppression against gay people. Gays in 1940s Europe aren't who I'm referring to. And I think you know that.
Also, this isn't a competition, but gays shouldn't make comparisons when they know very few people (probably all of whom are already on their side) will view the situations as being the same, or even similar. Not if they're actually trying to convince anyone of anything.
My point is, there should be no proverbial goalpost. All people should have equal rights, and those in the minority shouldn't have to suffer in order to get those equal rights.
And it's not as if the majority of blacks currently living in the US have been slaves at any point in their lives. So no fair using the suffering of your ancestors as a reason to have more equality than the gays.
The Chinese were brought over in hordes as menial labor to build the western portion of the transcontinental railroad in the difficult and dangerous mountainous sections. And it's estimated that more than a thousand Chinese laborers died during the project and 20,000 pounds of bones shipped back to China for burial. And for decades afterwards, the Chinese in America were looked down upon and treated as second class citizens. But no Chinese American I know ever harps on those injustices. And I know of no Japanese that dwells on the internment camps of WWII or the bomb dropped on Hiroshima. We Asians live in the present and for the future. We don't look back or expect entitlements. Maybe the past was ugly, but the silver lining is us being US citizens today and not crippled by self-pity or bitterness. We are survivors.
Sure I could. I could introduce myself as being gay, and how would you know I'm lying or if I just made it up because you told me to? You wouldn't. You'd take me at my word.
Here's one:
Quick! Make yourself black! Or, if you're actually black, make yourself Cantonese! Or, if you're actually Catonese, make yourself Japanese! Then, go outside and make people believe you.
Can't do it, can you?
Do you know anything of human sexuality? Really?
You can't just 'turn gay' one day the next and 'turn straight' the day after that (although you can become white - Michael Jackson is a prime example ).
There are a number of events that happen in the body that we are not even conscious of when we see someone that we are sexually attracted to. Blood pressure rises, synapses start firing, pupils pinpoint, temperature rises. These are things that we cannot control, they naturally happen. It's called sexual attraction. I can yell that I'm gay all day long, but if I'm not attracted to the peoples of the same sex, I am not gay (personally the idea of having sex with a vagina is revolting).
On the other hand, through surgical means, you can make yourself Catonese, or Japanese, or Irish, or Black. All being 'black' or 'white' is is a difference in the amount of melanin in the skin. It's what you attach with the labels that have meanings.
And btw, I'm black and I have no problem whatsoever with gays using parallels from the civil rights movements of the 60's. Oh the horror!!! The carnage!!! Throughout this whole thread you have downplayed the discrimination against gays and boosted up the discrimination against blacks. BOTH groups have gone through hell and back. BOTH groups have hand a plentiful handful of discrimination. The vibe I get from you is that gays never had and never will have had it as bad as blacks. I don't care if it's one or one million people who have been killed, refused, hated on, or [insert here] because of some trait that many consider inherent to their being; I don't care about the numbers, the fact is that the discrimination and hate took place.
If you really want to go their with this whole "this group hasn't had it as bad as us" argument, then the blacks have been riding the gravy train compared to the Jews. Since the beginning of the Jews they have been the scapegoat and the numbers that they have been murdered in amounts to the millions.
Last edited by kb09; 02-02-2009 at 07:30 PM..
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). 
Oh the horror!!! The carnage!!! Throughout this whole thread you have downplayed the discrimination against gays and boosted up the discrimination against blacks. BOTH groups have gone through hell and back. BOTH groups have hand a plentiful handful of discrimination. The vibe I get from you is that gays never had and never will have had it as bad as blacks. I don't care if it's one or one million people who have been killed, refused, hated on, or [insert here] because of some trait that many consider inherent to their being; I don't care about the numbers, the fact is that the discrimination and hate took place. 
