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Uh, you did? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the original post I quoted, you stated that you could become gay if you wanted. Twas a response to what you said.
No, I said I've known people who have decided to be gay. I didn't say that in my original post, and I said I could tell people I'm gay and they would be none the wiser. Conversely, a white person can't actually tell someone they're Black, for obvious reasons.
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You're missing the point. You can choose to sleep with whomever you want, but if you're not attracted to that person because of their gender, you are not gay or straight. I could sleep with women all I want but if I'm not sexually attracted to women, then I'm not a lesbian; twisted maybe, but not a homosexual. As I said before, when you are attracted to someone signals go off in your body that you are not aware of.
There have actually been some instances where straight men will have gay sex because of the anal stimulation. Kinda weird but to his/her own.
I'd say your actions play a part in who you are sexually. I don't buy into that whole "I can totally contradict my sensibilities and still be only defined by my inner processes" stuff. If you can't be burdened into acting on them to some degree, I'd question their validity and relevance in the first place.
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Thanks for your concerns, but I'm well read up on gay and black history. And I'm guessing that in your mind any black that is okay with paralleling the civil rights movement of the 60's to the one of today as not blacks? Switch outs? Correct me if I'm wrong; it's just the vibe that emulates from your words. And when people try to say one group's suffering doesn't compare to another's group because they haven't suffered enough, it's pretty hard to take them all seriously. Really now.
"The vibe", you say? I'm saying what I'm saying, if that makes any sense. I'm being completely above board. People are coming in here claiming that I'm saying something to effectively diminish gays. I'm not, but because I don't find it amusing in the least to compare struggles -- and like I said earlier on, in this kind of snide rhetorical game of gotcha, not that they actually give a crap about being thoughtful or making any relevant point -- doesn't mean I'm denigrating them in any way.
NO, their struggles aren't like ours, and the few minute parallels I could probably think of aren't anywhere near relevant enough to justify wholesale comparisons like a lot of people make, especially those who aren't black and aren't gay yet feel totally justified in speaking to the cause of both.
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No, it's just the Jews (collectively) haven't belly ached for the pass two thousand years when they clearly could. They aren't still saying that the man (or institution) is holding them down, and they don't play the Jew card every time someone disagrees with their views. They create wealth for themselves and their families and don't try to act as crabs trying to hold their more determined members down.
On the other hand we as blacks (somewhat collectively) haven't been the scapegoat since the beginning of Christ (at one time in Africa we were a very affluent and skilled people that traded with the European empires of that time - slaves included). I still know people that say it's because they are black that they get fired from their job, when in fact it's because of their laziness and attitudes that keep them out of work. Many blacks that are able to make it out of the ghettos and hoods and that are able to provide for their families better than they were before are called boojie, switch outs, whites (my favorite), and other colorful derrogatives. Instead of being able to praise the ones who are doing well for themselves and their families, we act as crabs, clawing to try to pull other's down to their level of misery. And you know, misery LOVES company.
Then, you assume the entire black community holds your views that the civil rights movement of the 60's shouldn't be compared to the one of today. Obviously neither you nor I nor any other black can speak for the 'community' as a whole. We as a whole cannot even unite together as one body to raise the wealth as a collective group.
You've been saying this whole time that the gay movement doesn't compare to the black one because they haven't suffered enough. I can use the same logic to say that the blacks should shut their holes, cuz the black suffering hasn't compared to that of the Jews. You see where I'm going with this? Discrimination and hate against a group because of an inherent characteristic is wrong, REGARDLESS of the group and regardless of the number. Whether it is one or one hundred, ten or ten thousand, the number does not matter; the matter of the fact is is that ONE person was murdered, discriminated against solely on the fact of a characteristic inherent to their being. That in itself is wrong and should warrant the support of other groups that have been oppressed, discriminated, and hated upon.
Wow, that's a lot of conjecture to say nothing.
Like I said, you can't come up with any examples. And I'd say you're misunderstanding my point, which is understandable and a little frustrating. I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, that gays shouldn't complain because blacks have had it worse. I'm not saying gays have to show reverence for our struggles in order to validate their struggles. I'm saying they need to not compare their struggles to ours, because they are totally different and completely offensive to both myself, and many other blacks, gay and straight.
You're trying to tell me to not turn this into a pissing contest...while turning this into a pissing contest. I've seen it time and time again.
"I'm saying they need to not compare their struggles to ours, because they are totally different and completely offensive to both myself, and many other blacks, gay and straight."
So let me get this straight: you're upset because you have more in common with, and generally prefer, the company of gays over blacks. You sympathize with their issues more than you do ours, because you figure since the 60s was so long ago, and Obama's president, racism doesn't exist any more. So, we (meaning blacks) should be good sports and let the gays siphon off credibility from us because we should automatically sympathize with them. How dare we be anything other than blindly liberal and tolerant of any idea the gays come up with? Rhetorical question.
Quite a few assumptions here...no, I do not prefer the company of or sympathize more with homosexuals, my point is not that they or their issues are more important, it is that they and their issues are EQUALLY important...something you fail to see in your adamant poor me mentality. Being a good sport (as you put it) is something which makes life easier all around, but clearly you would rather be bitter. For the record, I did not intend to imply that I believe you represent the majority attitude of black people, in fact the educated black friends I have DO support civil rights for gays and for all minority groups. What do you refer to when you speak of any idea the gays come up with...? I thought we were talking about basic civil rights here, and I stand firm in my belief that each and every citizen deserves the same civil rights, period.
My point isn't that their issues aren't important. I'd take issue with that for a different reason, but here, I'm referring to one thing: the egregiously offensive and erroneous comparisons they, and their supporters make.
I don't fail to see that. It's people like YOU who fail to see the importance of blacks' struggles, because if you did even a little, you'd understand where I'm coming from. You may not entirely agree, but this kind of rejection of my point isn't surprising. It is unsympathetic, which is fine. But do spare me the BS "poor gay people" line of crap. I called them a fellow bereaved minority in my OP. If I felt they weren't, I probably wouldn't have written that.
I don't know that your black friends would disagree with me, though. And then, if you're not black, and you seem like a bleeding heart liberal, they might just be telling you what they figure you want to hear because they don't want to come off threatening or uncivil.
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Considering the gays haven't done a great job at convincing the majority to vote for gay marriage, and they can't seem to get a cadre of influential politicians to go to bat for them, I'd say it would be in their best interest to at least try and play nice, and to maybe, just maybe, consider their methods before complaining about them not working. quote]
Play nice? That is what I tell my chihuahuas when they get feisty with each other, but not something I would say to another human being. Your condescending tone makes it very apparent that you not only have hang-ups about homosexuality, but a downright intolerance &/or hatred of it.
Whatever. You chalking up my points to me having a "poor me" mentality is every bit as condescending, so I don't really care how I come off to you. I didn't say "play nice" to be condescending actually, but it's better than using rhetoric that just pisses people off. But what do I know? I'm just intolerant and hateful
I guess you missed quite a few sermons in your time...
You know the lessons of Moses, leading his people from the clutches of Pharaoh...
Go down Moses,
way down in Egypt land,
tell old Pharaoh,
Let my people go...
The entire basis of African American liberation theology is based upon a co-option of Jewish struggles against slavery and maltreatment from Moses to Jesus.
My brother, please stop this needlessly divisive argument because it serves no constructive purpose. It has gone on too long with too many historical, political and moral inaccuracies.
First of all, there's a difference between gays taking a cue from blacks in the 50s and 60s and deciding to go after equal rights in a bout of social action, and justifying their pre-determined conclusions as being valid because blacks, to some extent, realized their goals.
If you know enough about black liberation theology, you know what I'm talking about.
Second, which inaccuracies would those be, again? An inaccuracy isn't just something you disagree with, because you may, in fact, be wrong. What's needlessly divisive is what I talk about in the OP. Me not supporting gays when they make these divisive parallels to the struggles of my people isn't what is divisive. It's just term limits.
"I'm saying they need to not compare their struggles to ours, because they are totally different and completely offensive to both myself, and many other blacks, gay and straight."
If you really are an advocate for civil rights, you would be promoting it beyond your personal situation. Extending those principles to ALL groups of people. Fact of the matter is, Gay people are born gay (If you still think gay people choose to be gay... take your case up with every Medical Association in america that will tell you you're wrong)
If you happen to be african American, and enjoy all the equal rights under the law due to the civil rights movement, and then you want to sit here and make it exclusive to you and only people like you... It only undermines the entire movement itself. YES there are still people out there that are racist, and people that think the entire civil rights movement for blacks was nothing but a fuss and "in your face tactics" Making it about only black people's rights, and showing the same hate and intolerance expressed towards you in the 1960's towards gays in the 2000's only makes you out to be a hypocrite, and will only give the racist folks that still exist more ammunition in undermining your cause.
I'd be willing to bet that, some of the same people that hate black people, hate gay people too. Seeming to jump on their bandwagon and point a finger at the gays might seem logical and safe in today's political climate... but just because you have your rights as a black person... doesn't mean that they still don't hate you too...
Oh the web we weave....
Actually it was an ad that STARTED on the Internet and eventually made it's way on TV.
From what I remember reading , it was only aired on tv on the actual day of the election. One day. And it wasn't organised or funded by the main campaigners of "No on 8".
"The vibe", you say? I'm saying what I'm saying, if that makes any sense. I'm being completely above board. People are coming in here claiming that I'm saying something to effectively diminish gays. I'm not, but because I don't find it amusing in the least to compare struggles -- and like I said earlier on, in this kind of snide rhetorical game of gotcha, not that they actually give a crap about being thoughtful or making any relevant point -- doesn't mean I'm denigrating them in any way.
Would tone be a better word to use then? You say what you say (obviously), but the tone from you words are one of somebody who thinks gays haven't suffered enough. I don't think you're saying something that's effectively diminishing gays, I just think that you think the gay cause is not a worthy one or at the very least one that shouldn't (under any circumstances) be compared to the black one. As I said before, its like you sayings that gays have to suffer alot more to even think of being compared to the black suffering.
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Originally Posted by cnt
NO, their struggles aren't like ours, and the few minute parallels I could probably think of aren't anywhere near relevant enough to justify wholesale comparisons like a lot of people make, especially those who aren't black and aren't gay yet feel totally justified in speaking to the cause of both.
YES, their struggles do have similarities with ours. Blacks fought for equality among all. Gays fight for the same equality. Blacks suffered from the injustices of racism. Gays suffered from the injustices of homophobia. See the similarities? Blacks and gays have suffered the same lot of injustices just under a different name. The black cause is very similar to that of the gay one in the fact that BOTH groups have been hated and discriminated upon, and BOTH groups have fought earnestly and hard for what they considered civil liberties that was granted to their counterparts. I agree, some comparisons that people make are hyperbole's, but some of the comparisons have merit and similarities that should and can be recognized if the other party is willing to see the similarities in both causes.
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Originally Posted by cnt
Wow, that's a lot of conjecture to say nothing.
Like I said, you can't come up with any examples. And I'd say you're misunderstanding my point, which is understandable and a little frustrating. I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, that gays shouldn't complain because blacks have had it worse. I'm not saying gays have to show reverence for our struggles in order to validate their struggles. I'm saying they need to not compare their struggles to ours, because they are totally different and completely offensive to both myself, and many other blacks, gay and straight.
You're trying to tell me to not turn this into a pissing contest...while turning this into a pissing contest. I've seen it time and time again.
Can't come up with any examples for what?
Again, you're speaking for the whole black community as you know each and every one of them personally. You can't speak for the group when the group itself splits itself off into factions. At their roots both struggles are the same; both struggles are calling for freedoms and liberties that they believe are justly do to them as citizens and as people. They are not totally different because both struggles are born from negative ism's and phobias and the hate, discrimination, and injustices that come along with them. They have more similarities than differences.
I'm not trying to turn anything into a pissing contest. I'm saying that comparing the causes has merit in it's own way and that the grassroots for freedom and equality are the same. If you think that is trying to turn this into a pissing contest - fine - that's your opinion; and as you know you are entitled to it.
It all boils down to whether or not gays are born that way or not. So far there have been no reputable scientists discover a gay gene no matter how much you want them to so you can justify your lifestyle. The idea that gays are born that way is the biggest lie in the science classes today. We are all born with no sex drive and as we hit puberty we naturally become attracted to the opposite sex. Psycological influences can heavily influence sexual orientation as a boy enters his teenage years. Young teenagers are very sexually curious and can many times be turned on by things adults would not be. Boys experimenting with other boys was once forbidden. Today it's encouraged. If a young boy finds pleasure when experimenting with his same sex pals, and he continues, that attraction to men will quickly grow stronger and stronger until it's practically impossible to change. It's the same concept for heterosexuals. I think homosexuals can change at age 14 somewhat easily if they want to. At age 22 it's a completely different game and most likely won't happen.
did you know that the first person to not give up his seat to a white boy(pre- R.Parks), who was also the architect of the march on washington and the boycotts and was also the man who guided MLK to greatness was a BLACK GAY MAN!!!
BAYARD RUSTIN!!!!!!!! look him up.
there are obvious commonalities in these struggles for human or civil rights. this great man B.Rustin saw it. why cant you.
open up your mind.
besides MLK said... "In a real sense all life is inter-related. All persons are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly. I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be, and you can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the inter-related structure of reality."
--Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.
he saw it, why cant you.
and why shouldnt other oppressed people use the same methods, ideas and tactics employed by others to get equal rights? what does that take from anyone?
thats like ghandi telling MLK, you cant use our principals!!! you dont know what brittish rule feels like!!!
in the end it doesnt matter. what MLK and the other people used in the 60's was all largely based on B.Rustin, a gay man who died to soon.
learn your history before trying to dictate what people should or shouldnt do.
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