Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This argument plays out the same no matter where I've seen it:
Most right-thinking people see it as a symobl of racism and treason. But then the "Good Ole' Boys" jump in and scream "HERITAGE!!!11!!1"
Who are these "right thinking people" who speak of? What makes them "right thinking"? Those who agree with you?
Quote:
I live in Philly and I can see confederate flags everywhere in certain hoods. What often accompanies these areas is the looks of glaring hate that laser in on myself or any other slightly-darker-than-snow individual who happens to be passing through.
"Philly" is not part of the South. If my experience with a Confederate Flag was limited to what one sees in "Philly" then I might feel the same way you do. That is, those from the "hood" who display it with no historical nor cultural understanding.
Save your contempt for those in your own neck of the woods who mis-use it. Take it out of their hands. Don't presume that we in the South are of the same ilk.
Quote:
I do respect the many cultural and historical facilites of the South and often lament how southerners are treated like they're the only ones who are racist (totally not true).
Totally true, and thank you.
Quote:
But let's talk facts here: No one flys the Union Jack here and for good reason. We fought them and we won. I know the southern crowd will scream and shout how we're all PC Yankee nannies who simply are being biogted, but to those who can see past the noise and realize that the Civil War was fought to uphold America's promise as a free nation will continue to make sure such visual filth is not forgotten for what it really means...[/
Explain further...?
But yes, let's talk facts. No one flys Union Jack here? What does that have to do with the Confederate Flag being part of our display down here? In the South, we fly the American Flag proudly. Subordinate to state flags, even. We lost the War. We accept it and have become the best of Americans. Can we still not be proud of our own unique history and heritage as Southerners. In microcosm...can a Texan not still be proud of the Lone Star Flag and the Alamo?
The difference in the display of the Union Jack (which I have no objection to flying, if that is what someone wants to fly) and the Confederate Flag is that is that the latter represents a people and heritage and ideal which were the most adament and fiesty when it came to the American Revolution. The Stars and Bars was intentionally designed to resemble the Flag of the "Old Union". That was the reason the need for a "Battle Flag" came in later.
Yes, and in all of the wars sans the War Between the States, it has always been Southern men (and women) who have been disporportionately represented in our nation's armed forces. I hope you will agree that in terms of "old fashioned patriotism" the South takes a backseat to no other part of the country.
Unfortunately, the flying of the Condfederate Flag has nothing to do with patriotism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
Anyway, the reason the "Confederate Flag" is the one that many seem to "give a hoot" about remembering comes down to that the "Civil War" was fought on American soil, by Americans. Over very real uniquely American issues. One side lost, and a whole section of the country was devasted by war, and later, by Reconstruction. It is only natural this war and its legacies be most remembered.
And exactly how do other places than the South remember it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
Where do you come by these 500 to 1 figures and the mindset behind such?
Observation. I grew up with it and see it every day of my life.
But you could be correct, it may be one in a thousand or more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
So? That is your opinion only. Perhaps you even come by it honestly, but is that sentiment supposed to make those of us who feel different roll and play dead? Or be impressed...?
Look at the third picture down in my post #732. In the upper right hand corner you will see the CBF flying in front of the State House in Columbia, SC.
When the Federal Government mandated desegregation in the 60s, the SC legislature voted to fly the Confederate Flag from the flagpole on top of the State House to show their disapproval of the law.
It was taken down and moved to the grounds in front of the State House a few years back when oposition to flying it on top of the Capitol dome finally reached a fever pitch. The "compromise" was to put it in front of the capitol and fly it as a "Confederate Memorial".
This is the last state in the union to fly the Confederate flag or display it other than in a museum, and as other posters have pointed out here, the mindset it represents is quite offensive to a lot of people both black and white.
Now - Why would you fly it KNOWING that it WILL offend people?
Unfortunately, the flying of the Condfederate Flag has nothing to do with patriotism.
Patriotism comes down to a love of country. Of ones place and home and family. It is not abstract, but emotional. And what one is willing to fight for and die for. If you are from the South, go into a VFW bar sometime in Texas, or North Carolina or Alabama , and tell those old WWII veterans who used the Confederate Battle Flag as part of their regimental icon that the reason they did so was not connected to a patriotism.
I have talked to those guys, my friend. When they charged into battle (in tanks or whatever...or just summing up courage on ships) and kicked Nazi philosophy into scattered pieces? Many of those units had the Confederate Battle Flag along with the American Flag going in with them. They were decended -- and remembered the stories -- of their own great-grandfathers. The greatest fighting men who ever lived. It gave them courage and gave them strength. George Patton was one of those...
So again, go into a VFW bar in Mississippi and tell some of them old guys there is no connection....
Quote:
Observation. I grew up with it and see it every day of my life.
But you could be correct, it may be one in a thousand or more.
Which way...? But cite your sources...
Quote:
Look at the third picture down in my post #732. In the upper right hand corner you will see the CBF flying in front of the State House in Columbia, SC.
Notice the United States Flag too? I can't help what hate groups do. I can only repudiate them. As the SCV does every year. As I try do to with every post, editorial, and essay and sentiment I ever write.
Quote:
When the Federal Government mandated desegregation in the 60s, the SC legislature voted to fly the Confederate Flag from the flagpole on top of the State House to show their disapproval of the law.
Yes, they did. Texas voted a "school closing law". All the Southern states resisted in some ways. BUT...at the same time? The symolism was not directed against black people so much as it was a bit of defiance against northern politicians who chose to ignore the dirt in their own backywards. It's use was more of a "Dont Tread On Me" than hatred against blacks. Tell me I am wrong. The most contemptible hypocricy was that of certain northern liberals who condemed the South...but when it affected THEM? These same fled to the suburbs and stuck their own kids in segregated schools. South Boston and Pontiac, Michigan are synoymous with violent resistance to racial integration. And today, the Southern states (11 Old Confederate plus Kentucky, Oklahoma and West Virginia) are those where blacks and whites feel most optomistic on race relations.....
Quote:
Now - Why would you fly it KNOWING that it WILL offend people?
Offend who? Please tell me the person -- the individual -- it will "offend" and I will personally contact them and tell them why I mean no personal offence nor disrespect. Hell, we can even DM on this. Gimme a number and a name.
See? The thing is, you deal in abstracts. I don't do ANYTHING with the intention of deliberately offending anyone. In turn though, I will not surrender my principles just because someone "night" be "offended".
Now - Why would you fly it KNOWING that it WILL offend people?
Maybe it provokes discussions like these where people get to share different viewpoints. It might cause some people to do some research, and to realize that the Civil War wasn't fought over simple issues, and had complex causes. People could possibly try to understand the Civil War in it's historical context, rather than simply applying their own current values and prejudices to it, and to the South in general.
Why should flying a flag result in knee-jerk labeling and outright prejudice against something that has symbolic value, both positive and negative? Why is there so much energy directed to labeling the South as EVIL and the North as GOOD, so symbols referencing the South are also cast as EVIL. All those Confederate soldiers weren't "evil-doers", and the Northern soldiers weren't angels. Some people surely do fly the Confederate flag out of narrow-mindedness and to make unworthy statements. But some people fly the Confederate flag because it IS a part of American history, a part of their heritage, and they value that.
I am not hating your ancestry, I'm hating white man's desire to be better than, and do whatever they want with/to everyone else, which can be represented by the confederate flag.
My problem with the Confederate Battle Standard is that I see it as a symbol of treason.
More than other CSA symbols, the crossed bars that we all see today were what were flying when rebels were firing on American soldiers and sailors.
Secession is not treason. It is not prohibited in the Constitution. It is a power reserved by the states and people (Amendment 10). They were not firing on their fellow citizens but foreign troops invading their country. And if you refuse to take my word for it, and what is clear in the Constitution, this ironic quote (coming from the most radical, anti-secession of Northern politicians) sums it up when there were some calling for Southern leaders to be tried for treason:
"If you bring these leaders to trial, it will condemn the North, for by the Constitution secession is not rebellion. We cannot convict him of treason." -Salmon P. Chase
In hindsight, I would disagree with Chief Justice Chase.
The powers reserved to the Federal government are such that no U.S. state can be a totally sovereign entity. How much state sovereignty is retained is debatable, but I tend to favor a narrow reading, especially of a catch-all statement like the Tenth Amendment. I think that the Constitutional leeway comes well short of allowing succession.
Present-day issue:
I didn't say they were firing on their fellow citizens. I said that they were firing on Americans, which are MY fellow citizens. When I see Americans celebrating our enemies it makes me uncomfortable.
In hindsight, I would disagree with Chief Justice Chase.
The powers reserved to the Federal government are such that no U.S. state can be a totally sovereign entity. How much state sovereignty is retained is debatable, but I tend to favor a narrow reading, especially of a catch-all statement like the Tenth Amendment. I think that the Constitutional leeway comes well short of allowing succession.
The Tenth Amendment:
Quote:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
You may not like it, and neither Lincoln nor Chase liked it, but secession is not prohibited anywhere in the Constitution, thus it is entirely a right of the states or people.
Furthermore, the Constitution in Article 7 says:
Quote:
The Ratification of the Conventions of nine States, shall be sufficient for the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same.
The Constitution was only ever binding on the states when they consented to it. Afterall, our founders believed in the following (from the Declaration of Independence):
Quote:
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
To say our founders would have wanted secession prohibited is absurd. They seceded from Great Britain themselves.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
