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Let me first of all say, PN, you are one of those who has an issue over the display over the Confederate Flag...yet at the same time acknowledges the objection stems from your own personal cultural/historical vision and outlook. For that alone, I respect your opinion. Unfortunately, there are many who share your outlook who, either out of ignorance or hatred or agenda, cannot or will not grant that not everybody sees it in the same light. With that said...
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Originally Posted by PureNarcotic
With this thread, I admit I read the first 12 pages and then skipped to the last page, so if the exact question I ask has been brought up, forgive me. The title of the thread is "What's wrong with the Confederate Flag?" But honestly, I feel a better question would be "What's right with the Confederate Flag?" Or to ask that question in a way that actually makes sense, "Why would someone fly the Confederate Flag?"
For a reason that is far less complicated than so many non-Southerners just don't/want to accept nor understand. To wit, it is part of our history and heritage (more on this below), and we are proud of it.
Backtracking just a bit, when many speak of the "Confederate Flag" they are talking of only one of many. In this case, the so-called "Rebel Flag" so considered in national imagery (the rectangular "Battle Flag" and "Naval Jack"), which was never adopted by the CSA government. Some call it the "Stars and Bars", but it wasn't and isn't. One was a National Flag. The other was just that, a banner of the soldiers and sailors on the fronts.
As to why this point is relevant, then consider that if a person doesn't even know the differences in the many Confederate Flags, then why should their opinion be taken seriously on the issue?
As it is -- as you seem more sensible and open-minded than many -- , to your question of "why" would anyone fly it? To many of us in the South, the query itself presumes something that neither historically nor culturally are we willing to accept. Which is that stands for "treason and racism and rebellion." The treason and rebellion thingy has been addressed many times (and refuted). The "rascim" aspect so often reeks of an hyporcricy ala' that many non-Southerners do not want to confront their own history and symbols as per the same.
BTW -- I hasten to add I am not saying the above are your own personal reasons...
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Just for the record, I don't feel that the flag or any other symbol should be banned. I'm not even against the flag - I just don't understand the reasons that people have for flying the flag. There was discussion of the roots of the flag in regards to St. Andrews' Cross and the Scots-Irish, but really, do you think most of the people who fly it would be able to give you a European history lesson?
Good point! But at the same time, how many Americans know the history of the (many) American flags either? Or the history of the American Revolution either? Or how divisive it really was at that time. And by extenstion, the reason behind the many different designs of the "United States Flag"? As I am sure you know, many wanted the canton part of the original flag to consist of the British flag...
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The reason I hear most often is pride in southern heritage. This is a reason I never really understood. The Confederate States of America was an entity that was in existence for four years. Never mind the many decades of AMERICAN history that both preceded and followed the existence of the the Confederacy, let's just focus on those magical four years where we broke away...and failed.
I am not trying in the least to be condecending (for one, I have no credentials to be so...and wouldn't anyway..), but perhaps the reason you do not understand boils down to that you are not a Southerner...?
True the Confederacy existed only four years...but its existence (both before and after) is very much intrinsically linked to American history itself. It was largely Southern men who wrote the DOI and Constitution. There is no seperation to be considered in terms of ideology other than that one section of the country felt they best represented the ideals of the founding. The northern states kept the title "United States" only by default. Nothing more.
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I guess it depends on how one defines heritage. To me, the term isn't so tunnel-visioned that it only recognizes four specific years in history. I don't understand why one wouldn't just fly an American flag. I mean, at least the United States of America is an entity that's still in existence, rather than one that became defunct over 140 years ago. But that's just me.
I see what you are saying from your own viewpoint...but The Republic of Texas became defunt over 160 years ago. Can we not still be proud of the Lone Star Flag? Or that the Alamo in still considered a "shrine" in Texas? It doesn't reflect that we want to revert to our former status as a seperate nation. It just translates into a certain sort of pride which is hard for those "not from here" to understand.
By the same token, neither does the display of the Confederate Flag (whichever one it might be) mean Southerners want to secede again. Just that we are proud of our history and heritiage. The fighting spirits of our ancestors. Our very unique and seperate identify as a region.
Believe me, Southerners are the most patriotic, in the old fashioned sense, of any Americans....
Your little thought came out of desperation. It's not a question of being offended, genius. It's the right to display it by certain groups that have no intention of being racist.
Don't try to hide it. Your post is overflowing with it.
You're offended.
But you sure don't have any patience for anyone else being offended. They're just being intolerant, aren't they?
For a reason that is far less complicated than so many non-Southerners just don't/want to accept nor understand. To wit, it is part of our history and heritage (more on this below), and we are proud of it.
There have been a lot of wars that America has been involved in during the last 232 years, yet this is the only war or flag that anyone seems to give a hoot about remembering.
I live in Columbia, South Carolina on land that was once part of General Wade Hampton's Woodlands Plantation, which Sherman went out of his way to burn because of a grudge. I am roughly a mile and a half from the ruins. I grew up here and have studied history fairly extensively.
My great-great grandfather was Captain Henry Williamson Dixon of the 6th S.C. Regiment who served honorably, fought at the Second Manassas, and was wounded by a sniper near Richmond, VA. on his way home. You can see his uniform and a piece of his shoulder bone in the Confederate Museum in Richmond today. No member of my family ever owned a slave that I have been able to find a recor of, but I do have letters where my great grandmother sent money to a former slave in Florida for his upkeep in his later years in the 1920s.
For every person who flies ANY of the Confederate flags today on any occasion other than Confederate Memorial Day, a reenactment, or an official gathering of some type, there are 500 who fly it simply to show contempt for other people. I won't recount how many "I ride with Forrest" bumper stickers you can see here locally.
I'll tell you exactly what I told the SCV when they tried to get me to join:
I have never met ANYONE who thinks they are not O.K. in a museum. Our problem is with people that hang it on their house, pick-up truck, etc.
I don't hang a Confederate flag but could care less about those who do. Matter of fact, it's the MEXICAN flag that I can't stand seeing in our country!
Let me first of all say, PN, you are one of those who has an issue over the display over the Confederate Flag...yet at the same time acknowledges the objection stems from your own personal cultural/historical vision and outlook. For that alone, I respect your opinion. Unfortunately, there are many who share your outlook who, either out of ignorance or hatred or agenda, cannot or will not grant that not everybody sees it in the same light. With that said...
For a reason that is far less complicated than so many non-Southerners just don't/want to accept nor understand. To wit, it is part of our history and heritage (more on this below), and we are proud of it.
Backtracking just a bit, when many speak of the "Confederate Flag" they are talking of only one of many. In this case, the so-called "Rebel Flag" so considered in national imagery (the rectangular "Battle Flag" and "Naval Jack"), which was never adopted by the CSA government. Some call it the "Stars and Bars", but it wasn't and isn't. One was a National Flag. The other was just that, a banner of the soldiers and sailors on the fronts.
As to why this point is relevant, then consider that if a person doesn't even know the differences in the many Confederate Flags, then why should their opinion be taken seriously on the issue?
As it is -- as you seem more sensible and open-minded than many -- , to your question of "why" would anyone fly it? To many of us in the South, the query itself presumes something that neither historically nor culturally are we willing to accept. Which is that stands for "treason and racism and rebellion." The treason and rebellion thingy has been addressed many times (and refuted). The "rascim" aspect so often reeks of an hyporcricy ala' that many non-Southerners do not want to confront their own history and symbols as per the same.
BTW -- I hasten to add I am not saying the above are your own personal reasons...
Good point! But at the same time, how many Americans know the history of the (many) American flags either? Or the history of the American Revolution either? Or how divisive it really was at that time. And by extenstion, the reason behind the many different designs of the "United States Flag"? As I am sure you know, many wanted the canton part of the original flag to consist of the British flag...
I am not trying in the least to be condecending (for one, I have no credentials to be so...and wouldn't anyway..), but perhaps the reason you do not understand boils down to that you are not a Southerner...?
True the Confederacy existed only four years...but its existence (both before and after) is very much intrinsically linked to American history itself. It was largely Southern men who wrote the DOI and Constitution. There is no seperation to be considered in terms of ideology other than that one section of the country felt they best represented the ideals of the founding. The northern states kept the title "United States" only by default. Nothing more.
I see what you are saying from your own viewpoint...but The Republic of Texas became defunt over 160 years ago. Can we not still be proud of the Lone Star Flag? Or that the Alamo in still considered a "shrine" in Texas? It doesn't reflect that we want to revert to our former status as a seperate nation. It just translates into a certain sort of pride which is hard for those "not from here" to understand.
By the same token, neither does the display of the Confederate Flag (whichever one it might be) mean Southerners want to secede again. Just that we are proud of our history and heritiage. The fighting spirits of our ancestors. Our very unique and seperate identify as a region.
Believe me, Southerners are the most patriotic, in the old fashioned sense, of any Americans....
Excellent post! When we were in N.Y. we saw all kinds of flags hung; Polish, Itallian, Irish, etc. At least the Confederate flag is representative of States "within" the U.S. Where's the outcry when the Mexicans took the U.S. Flag, turned it upside down, and then placed their rag of a flag above ours.
just like I support the gays or those who are anglophiles to fly the rainbow or the union jack, the confederate flag should have place as well.
the union jack is a symbol of oppression, colonial rule, slavery(it enslaved many people here before it was independent as well as around the globe). but we allow people to fly it. the rainbow flag is offensive to many people as a symbol of gay pride, hedonism, immorality(to some) but they are allow to fly it--and I will fight for their right of expression, just as I fight for the right of millions of white southerners who love that flag and probably hate me because of my black skin. Because we live is a free society, where somethings may offend, but to others it may be a source of pride.
i see all the bumperstickers that are treasonous in this country, attack the president(whether it be Bush or Clinton), i see attacks for and against gay marriage, i see, pro life and pro abortion bumper stickers---we need to get over the pettiness of a piece of cloth or paper and start solving real problems facing our country.
I can understand your beliefs, but I see it as a symbol of hate, and I think hate groups should be banned. Now maybe I am wrong here, but it is what I feel at the moment. I even think that censorship of movies should return. Again, maybe I am wrong here, but that is how I see it. And I have lived in the south and left it due to the open racism. And yes, people that fly those flags do hate blacks. I had to listen to their hate almost daily because they felt that because I was white I must hate blacks. And the Rainbow flag has nothing to do with hate, but instead it is all about love. It is also nothing like pro life or pro abortion stickers. These flags say it is okay to hate and they perpetuate hate.
P.S. If you had to listen to the "N" word on a daily basis by these types of people you would know what I mean. They may not say it to your face, but they did mine, and I knew that many of these people were card carrying KKK members because I was told about this. I could go on and on about my experiences in the south, but for me I just wanted to leave, and so my husband and I did. I even had fear of speaking up for the blacks, and the one time I did a white person pulled me aside and told me to be careful because I could start a race riot.
Last edited by Mattie Jo; 01-29-2009 at 05:13 AM..
There have been a lot of wars that America has been involved in during the last 232 years, yet this is the only war or flag that anyone seems to give a hoot about remembering.
Yes, and in all of the wars sans the War Between the States, it has always been Southern men (and women) who have been disporportionately represented in our nation's armed forces. I hope you will agree that in terms of "old fashioned patriotism" the South takes a backseat to no other part of the country.
Anyway, the reason the "Confederate Flag" is the one that many seem to "give a hoot" about remembering comes down to that the "Civil War" was fought on American soil, by Americans. Over very real uniquely American issues. One side lost, and a whole section of the country was devasted by war, and later, by Reconstruction. It is only natural this war and its legacies be most remembered.
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I live in Columbia, South Carolina on land that was once part of General Wade Hampton's Woodlands Plantation, which Sherman went out of his way to burn because of a grudge. I am roughly a mile and a half from the ruins. I grew up here and have studied history fairly extensively.
My great-great grandfather was Captain Henry Williamson Dixon of the 6th S.C. Regiment who served honorably, fought at the Second Manassas, and was wounded by a sniper near Richmond, VA. on his way home. You can see his uniform and a piece of his shoulder bone in the Confederate Museum in Richmond today. No member of my family ever owned a slave that I have been able to find a recor of, but I do have letters where my great grandmother sent money to a former slave in Florida for his upkeep in his later years in the 1920s.
This is very interesting history.
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For every person who flies ANY of the Confederate flags today on any occasion other than Confederate Memorial Day, a reenactment, or an official gathering of some type, there are 500 who fly it simply to show contempt for other people. I won't recount how many "I ride with Forrest" bumper stickers you can see here locally.
Where do you come by these 500 to 1 figures and the mindset behind such?
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I'll tell you exactly what I told the SCV when they tried to get me to join:
[b]"Heritage, My Ass".[/B]
So? That is your opinion only. Perhaps you even come by it honestly, but is that sentiment supposed to make those of us who feel different roll and play dead? Or be impressed...?
This argument plays out the same no matter where I've seen it:
Most right-thinking people see it as a symobl of racism and treason. But then the "Good Ole' Boys" jump in and scream "HERITAGE!!!11!!1"
I live in Philly and I can see confederate flags everywhere in certain hoods. What often accompanies these areas is the looks of glaring hate that laser in on myself or any other slightly-darker-than-snow individual who happens to be passing through. I do respect the many cultural and historical facilites of the South and often lament how southerners are treated like they're the only ones who are racist (totally not true).
But let's talk facts here: No one flys the Union Jack here and for good reason. We fought them and we won. I know the southern crowd will scream and shout how we're all PC Yankee nannies who simply are being biogted, but to those who can see past the noise and realize that the Civil War was fought to uphold America's promise as a free nation will continue to make sure such visual filth is not forgotten for what it really means...
Oerdin you are correct. When somebody looks at a Confederate flag what image pops into their heads? It certainly isn't the same one when we look at the American flag.
Flags are symbols. Symbols mean different things to different people. Some people associate the confederate flag with some positive things, and some people think that the conversation about the Civil War, why it happened and what the results were, is a conversation that needs to be on-going.
I'll be honest, I am black, and I live here in Indiana. I know many a white dude that has the deepest southern drawl you could ever hear, and I'm tight with most of them. But honestly, if one of them started flying a confederate flag, I'd be looking out the corner of my eye at that mother****er everytime he's in my vicinity. It may be wrong, but most black people associate the flag with the days of slavery and although not inherently, it gives off the vibe of, "bring back the good 'ol days of public lynching!"
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