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Brainwashed BS. Let me cut down the chase.
- Do you support negotiation of contracts?
- If you do, are there conditions? And if you don't, why?
Brainwashed BS?
Easy for you to say when you don't have people sending death threats to your family or showing up in front of your house in buses set up by a major union in bed with the DNC.
As for the contracts, again the government was fully aware of what was to come and so should live with it. If they weren't on board then it should have never been written into the porkulus.
This AIG stuff is just an attempt to draw ire from some real issues like the monitization of our debt.
Nice try though, time to get back to the bosses at the DNC or SEIU and let 'em know it hasn't worked on everyone...
Jimj to this argument I say they claimed their house was on fire (and it was) so we came to their aid and defense. No taxpayer in their right mind would have agreed to these bonuses if they were to waste 5yrs to pour over the minutia of a contract. The mad rush to get the aid in place did allow smarmy games to run amok, and it was ethically wrong to profiteer from a dire situation.
The taxpayers wouldn't but the government sure did it for us didn't they? Didn't Dodd write it in the stim bill? Wasn't Timmy G in the room when this was all negociated and if the lame brain pols didn't read it in the bill before they signed it then shame on them. Obama knew as well. So again, it's not right but they did it anyway and didn't say a darn thing until an uproar started.
Brainwashed BS?
Easy for you to say when you don't have people sending death threats to your family or showing up in front of your house in buses set up by a major union in bed with the DNC.
As for the contracts, again the government was fully aware of what was to come and so should live with it. If they weren't on board then it should have never been written into the porkulus.
This AIG stuff is just an attempt to draw ire from some real issues like the monitization of our debt.
Nice try though, time to get back to the bosses at the DNC or SEIU and let 'em know it hasn't worked on everyone...
Well, you missed the two questions I asked. Would you like to answer them now? Or, put this to rest?
LOL jimj-- I really like that slogan, we really do surround them if we stand up. If only we realize that the 'them' we also need to surround is the one in the mirror harboring any last lie we've participated in knowingly or not. Lies from govt giving us a false sense of security when laws weren't enforced, and lies from corporations insisting only they knew best.
The government can only move so fast on such a thing as this... want to complain that they did the evelyn wood speed reading and didn't pay attention to context?? They admitted their lapse in responsibility openly. Had they not taken a short cut what does that mean in the greater context when every day that went by would add up to uncontrollable bleeding as it did in the depression? Decisions made under duress or emergency conditions are not standard business contract. You do realize we have staved off a full blown depression, don't you?
Listen, this is NOT normal. Marshal law being evoked is what is in play because they did it to themselves and took us all for a ride coming and going. The uproar would be the taxpayer input on that contract negotiation. End of discussion I'd say. These people getting threats and vitriol hurled upon them... they're lucky to be spared their lives considering the provocation they've instigated with sweetheart deals brokered last spring. Apparently someone last spring knew what the fall was going to be about. Who brokered these shady deals? How has this passed for legit business practice? How many more toxic assets were sold, knowingly passing on that hot potato to a sucker, between last spring and november? We had quite a flurry of activity going on last august in the stock market. Where were they all running?
Are we all on the same page about now that the fox is not qualified to watch the hen house??? Are we all on the same page that SEC enforcement is not 'harassing' honest business ventures and boo hiss on the party pooper law man slowing down my profits? Complain about monetization?? Where were you the past decade when the institutional thief started gambling with insurance money? As far as I'm concerned we're paying for 30 yrs of stupidity in one fell swoop. Where do we go from here? Forward, one foot in front of the other one day at a time.
Marie Antoinette, beware your abuses of the law, or you'll find it absent when you need it most. "Legal" stealing is still stealing and I don't think this nation can take any more abuse before their faith in capitalism is destroyed completely. Would this be your intended consequence, or more narcissism at taxpayer expense???
Although we disagree I have appreciated your posts but this really stands out to me...
Quote:
Originally Posted by harborlady
The government can only move so fast on such a thing as this... want to complain that they did the evelyn wood speed reading and didn't pay attention to context?? They admitted their lapse in responsibility openly.
These bonuses were intentionally left in place, reaffirmed and the employees reassured. There was no lapse in responsibility or short cut. I don't know if the 'outrage' was just a CYA play or if it was an intentional set-up to further set the average American on a rampage against big business or perhaps they were taking advantage of an opportunity to deflect onto a much smaller issue (1/10th of 1% of the bailout money) while much of the rest of the bailout money is going who knows where.
Quote:
Are we all on the same page about now that the fox is not qualified to watch the hen house??? Are we all on the same page that SEC enforcement is not 'harassing' honest business ventures and boo hiss on the party pooper law man slowing down my profits? Complain about monetization?? Where were you the past decade when the institutional thief started gambling with insurance money? As far as I'm concerned we're paying for 30 yrs of stupidity in one fell swoop. Where do we go from here? Forward, one foot in front of the other one day at a time.
I'm not sure we can rightly identify the fox. At this point the distrust towards our government is growing and many of them are among the foxes. They are more than willing to point out corporate misdeeds but never do they point the finger back at themselves, which is where I think they need to start. Many took AIG campaign money. Many helped create the medium in which the current chaos grows, they planted the seeds. Did even one of our congressmen come out and justify taking over $2M for their annual pay raises this year? This year when people are losing their jobs and homes and (in your words) barely escaping a depression? A lot of us hens are not getting a pay raise this year. Not only have people lost their jobs but many more are facing reduced pay, hours cut back just to preserve their job. It just looks bad for them to take a pay increase when they claim the house is falling down. You are right in that the foxes can't guard the henhouse...but the foxes are not only on Wall Street, they reside in Washington as well.
All over America rank and file employees are having pensions cancelled. Simply cancelled. Salaries cut. Mandatory fuloughs. Longer work weeks. Etc. The UAW is held up as some kind of poster child for employee selfishness. GM went through 7 Billion dollars in three months! I know some of you think that because workers at the Honda plant make $14/hr and GM workers make $25/hr that makes the case for a smackdown of UAW workers but... ... GM is the largest automaker in the world. Why should its workers make the same as Honda plant workers? Does the GM CEO make the same as the Honda CEO? If you are going to try and shame American workers into wage slavery then it needs to be done carrot style. As in, times are tough, we are all taking it on the chin, from the top down. The UAW would not resist re-negotiation of contracts if they saw good faith on the part of management to also sacrifice!! Only last week someone posted the income distribution in the U.S. where if the U.S. was 100 people 50 people would have a nickel etc. That distribution does not account for the Bush years in which the rich pulled away to the tune of 700 Billion. And, if like me, you realize that 'bailouts' are really another way for the rich to take money that belonged to middle and lower class taxpayers and requisition it to their own ends then in just a few weeks the rich added a Trillion more to their side of the balance sheet. Even if some sort of economic Martial Law is declared and every working American is busted down to minimum wage you still aren't going to regain the economy unless the rich and uber rich are all put into that same category. Horrors! Captains of industry working for minimum wage!? Why not. It's symbolic. Didn't Iacocca work for no salary at all when his company was on the skids? Its a time honored American tradition that fell out of favor. A lot of responsibilities and regulations fell out of favor during the Bush years. It didn't take long before the greatest economy in the free world fell apart under the greed of a few hundred people. America cannot get back up unless the wealthy are willing to do their part. The recovery cannot be effective unless all America participates.
The government can only move so fast on such a thing as this... want to complain that they did the evelyn wood speed reading and didn't pay attention to context?? They admitted their lapse in responsibility openly. Had they not taken a short cut what does that mean in the greater context when every day that went by would add up to uncontrollable bleeding as it did in the depression? Decisions made under duress or emergency conditions are not standard business contract. You do realize we have staved off a full blown depression, don't you?
Unfortunately I think we have not staved off the depression, if anything we've kicked the can down the road a bit but at what cost? How much freedom are you willing to give away to avoid the inevitable pain that we'll have to undergo? As more of this "plan" comes out (which I fully beleive is being written on the fly) the more it's looking like we're giving way,way too much authority to the government, autority not given them by the constitution, hence Turbo Timmy could not answer where in the constitution does it say he can do what he's proposing.
Quote:
Listen, this is NOT normal. Marshal law being evoked is what is in play because they did it to themselves and took us all for a ride coming and going. The uproar would be the taxpayer input on that contract negotiation. End of discussion I'd say. These people getting threats and vitriol hurled upon them... they're lucky to be spared their lives considering the provocation they've instigated with sweetheart deals brokered last spring. Apparently someone last spring knew what the fall was going to be about. Who brokered these shady deals? How has this passed for legit business practice? How many more toxic assets were sold, knowingly passing on that hot potato to a sucker, between last spring and november? We had quite a flurry of activity going on last august in the stock market. Where were they all running?
What y'all keep leaving out of this equation is the pols involvement in this and the benefits/largess they received from these corporations and were fat dumb and happy as long as the largess continued. Why is it wrong to hold the people who received huge $$ from these corporations, the people who were supposed to be watching them, the people who write the laws and regulations to the same or higher standard than we hold the CEO's? Why shouldn't the sheriff be the FIRST one to be run out of town?
Quote:
Are we all on the same page about now that the fox is not qualified to watch the hen house??? Are we all on the same page that SEC enforcement is not 'harassing' honest business ventures and boo hiss on the party pooper law man slowing down my profits? Complain about monetization?? Where were you the past decade when the institutional thief started gambling with insurance money? As far as I'm concerned we're paying for 30 yrs of stupidity in one fell swoop. Where do we go from here? Forward, one foot in front of the other one day at a time.
We are kind of paying for OUR stupidity but instead of taking our medicine (as voters we abdicated our responsability for years) like adults the current plan is to pass it on to future generations if we survive.
Quote:
Marie Antoinette, beware your abuses of the law, or you'll find it absent when you need it most. "Legal" stealing is still stealing and I don't think this nation can take any more abuse before their faith in capitalism is destroyed completely. Would this be your intended consequence, or more narcissism at taxpayer expense???
You seem like a smart person so let me ask this, How do you get out of debt by borrowing more money? Shouldn't one be saving money to pay off debt?
LOL jimj-- I really like that slogan, we really do surround them if we stand up. If only we realize that the 'them' we also need to surround is the one in the mirror harboring any last lie we've participated in knowingly or not. Lies from govt giving us a false sense of security when laws weren't enforced, and lies from corporations insisting only they knew best.
The government can only move so fast on such a thing as this... want to complain that they did the evelyn wood speed reading and didn't pay attention to context?? They admitted their lapse in responsibility openly. Had they not taken a short cut what does that mean in the greater context when every day that went by would add up to uncontrollable bleeding as it did in the depression? Decisions made under duress or emergency conditions are not standard business contract. You do realize we have staved off a full blown depression, don't you?
Listen, this is NOT normal. Marshal law being evoked is what is in play because they did it to themselves and took us all for a ride coming and going. The uproar would be the taxpayer input on that contract negotiation. End of discussion I'd say. These people getting threats and vitriol hurled upon them... they're lucky to be spared their lives considering the provocation they've instigated with sweetheart deals brokered last spring. Apparently someone last spring knew what the fall was going to be about. Who brokered these shady deals? How has this passed for legit business practice? How many more toxic assets were sold, knowingly passing on that hot potato to a sucker, between last spring and november? We had quite a flurry of activity going on last august in the stock market. Where were they all running?
Are we all on the same page about now that the fox is not qualified to watch the hen house??? Are we all on the same page that SEC enforcement is not 'harassing' honest business ventures and boo hiss on the party pooper law man slowing down my profits? Complain about monetization?? Where were you the past decade when the institutional thief started gambling with insurance money? As far as I'm concerned we're paying for 30 yrs of stupidity in one fell swoop. Where do we go from here? Forward, one foot in front of the other one day at a time.
Marie Antoinette, beware your abuses of the law, or you'll find it absent when you need it most. "Legal" stealing is still stealing and I don't think this nation can take any more abuse before their faith in capitalism is destroyed completely. Would this be your intended consequence, or more narcissism at taxpayer expense???
These bonuses were intentionally left in place, reaffirmed and the employees reassured. There was no lapse in responsibility or short cut. I don't know if the 'outrage' was just a CYA play or if it was an intentional set-up to further set the average American on a rampage against big business or perhaps they were taking advantage of an opportunity to deflect onto a much smaller issue (1/10th of 1% of the bailout money) while much of the rest of the bailout money is going who knows where.
When AIG comes begging to congress for a bailout, offering theatrics that they'll accept $1 salary KNOWING they've got bonus sweetheart deals on the back burner of fine print/ loophole, who is playing whom here?
Rampage against big business? American taxpayers AND legit business are the victims, and 'big business' is being rampaged against? No, fraud is being rampaged against. Fake business, under the guise of legit, is being rampaged against. Americans being talked down to condescendingly is most definitely being rampaged against. I honestly can't blame these people, although I hope they'd keep their tempers in check. There's only so much abuse people can take, and if you've heard the utter contempt for working class coming from the GOP media all these years, you've got to know something seriously foul has been going on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCyank
I'm not sure we can rightly identify the fox. At this point the distrust towards our government is growing and many of them are among the foxes. They are more than willing to point out corporate misdeeds but never do they point the finger back at themselves, which is where I think they need to start. Many took AIG campaign money. Many helped create the medium in which the current chaos grows, they planted the seeds. Did even one of our congressmen come out and justify taking over $2M for their annual pay raises this year? This year when people are losing their jobs and homes and (in your words) barely escaping a depression? A lot of us hens are not getting a pay raise this year. Not only have people lost their jobs but many more are facing reduced pay, hours cut back just to preserve their job. It just looks bad for them to take a pay increase when they claim the house is falling down. You are right in that the foxes can't guard the henhouse...but the foxes are not only on Wall Street, they reside in Washington as well.
Agree with much, but I ask you, what honest man could get elected in the system we have permitted to exist?
I agree with this assessment as well. Report: Wall Street Spent $5 Billion For Political Influence | Political Hotsheet - CBS News
I disagree that the 'fox' can't be identified (there were many working together, and others working independently, all of them fixated on personal gain blind to consequence because the consequence was deregulated ).
Now, being a huge fan of accountability, how about we the people take a heaping dose of that as well. Shall we?
Lets insist the GAO do a detailed timeline, each piece of legislation involved, each yay and nay vote, and an explanation from each of these characters about why they voted as they did. Lets hear it all, no fluff, and don't shoot the messenger. Lets also take a good look at these nefarious financial schemes in terms of economic terrorism. No, I'm not kidding.
I've already suggested this in numerous threads, but perhaps it will get in peoples minds more solidly by repetition. Campaign contributions & lobbyist $$ have no business being in the hands of candidates. We're attracting people in it for the $$ and can't wonder why we've got prostitutes representing us. We have forced them into it. Have meaningful campaign finance reform through a general fund that sponsors debates and print articles. No more PACS, nasty smears and litter nuisance. Your salary is your salary, no sideline work, no junkets, no nothing. The job is for we the people to insist it be so. Passively sitting by isn't really working out now is it??? How bad does it have to get for every single one of you to insist that america is NOT for sale?
This is not a class war or hate on business some want to make it out to be, but the fact that it's been projected into this thread tells me how effectively GOP has installed that propaganda. This is about american business being legitimate enterprise, and demanding that ethical standard. We're not a nation of charlatans and deadbeats. It's about firms like arthur anderson losing all respectability. It's about loss of investor confidence, and the loss of confidence in the US dollar. It's about the never ending bash fest on american working class. It's about all the respectable businesses taking a bath right along with the rest of us who did the right thing.
So forget arguments defending nefarious business practice and realize we're all in the same battered ship. If you're not willing to fight for your country by insisting the standard, you should leave because troubled times are bound to inconvenience you. No, I'm not saying that facetiously, I'm telling you it's time to toughen up. Our military strength is tied to the dollar and our troops are in peril. Seniors living on 401k's are in peril. Someone saw fit to let us know where a massive vulnerability in our system resides, and if we don't fix it we'll remain vulnerable. Legitimate business lost profit twice by competing against a crook and this bailout.
Capitalism is not what's been practiced when the host soveriegn nation is being raped, unless you consider that acceptable, in which case, capitalism will be put to death as a criminal enterprise. I believe organized crime undermining capitalism is not legit capitialism, and I will defend capitalism so long as you aren't defending criminals. Can we pull together here?
JimJ-- I believe the above answers most of what you've posed as question. WE the people really DO need to assert ourselves about getting DC cesspool cleaned up. Please read that link. It's not acceptable to me that anyone with enough $$$ can purchase grace and favor for themselves at the expense of the many, infinitely using it as a cash cow to purchase even more grace and favor. How do you feel about it? How do all americans feel about it?
Our America is weakened, and WE need to fix it. Did we push a can down the road? Yes, but it bought us time to get to the root causes, figure out how to fix it, and how to position ourselves for our own future as individuals. I'm not bragging on myself, but I did make adjustments to my own investments 3yrs ago, and additionally 2 yrs ago, that have preserved my principle. Other investments were designed to weather long term storms materially, and reduce my daily overhead. I did my best to warn people, but hey, you believe who you want. I'm sorry for those who weren't in a position to do so themselves, for lack of understanding, awareness, or opportunity. Bush years of fake prosperity were over before Bush left. Any stragglers in denial, wake up already!
You mention giving away freedom. Have we not been doing that all along when the highway of lobbyists into DC were purchasing our government without challenging their 'right' to do so??? Why should any intelligent proposed legislation require millions JUST to be passed? What rights will anyone have if we continue to permit America being weakened by a flawed system as it has been for a century? Ron Paul might not have all the answers, or even a decent solution in mind, but that doesn't mean he isn't pointing out serious sink holes in the path ahead. I wish GOP were well enough to make meaningful contributions to solutions. As they have been, they're empty handed at best, a nuisance at worst. Ron Paul and Obama need to have a serious pow wow. No drama, no grandstanding, nothing but the truth so help us god.
Harbor, you are quite right with much of the post. I would propose that before looking to the great messiah the government for answers (both parties) who are and have been largely bought off we need to clean house and demand not request meaningful election reform and bar lobbyists from paying for access. Elections should not be about how much $$ you raise and they should not be able to decide who wins by the size of a war chest which is how it is now. We should limit campaign contributions, open debates to all who have some percentage of support and stop all corporate funds. The networks should be required to run a certain amount of election ads,debates and such for free since they are public airwaves after all. You want to run a negative ad that doesn't do anything but talk smack about your opponent? Nope! No more of that! If you want to do that you'll have to do it to their face so they can respond.
Until we take the corruption and corporations/special interests out of our government and return it to the people we can't truely work on the corporate problems for who is going to really go against their master?
AIG is just a symptom of a larger problem and really a pimple on the face of it all.
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Who brokered these shady deals? How has this passed for legit business practice? How many more toxic assets were sold, knowingly passing on that hot potato to a sucker, between last spring and november? We had quite a flurry of activity going on last august in the stock market. Where were they all running? 
What rights will anyone have if we continue to permit America being weakened by a flawed system as it has been for a century? Ron Paul might not have all the answers, or even a decent solution in mind, but that doesn't mean he isn't pointing out serious sink holes in the path ahead. I wish GOP were well enough to make meaningful contributions to solutions. As they have been, they're empty handed at best, a nuisance at worst. Ron Paul and Obama need to have a serious pow wow. No drama, no grandstanding, nothing but the truth so help us god.
