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No torture took place before Bush???
I am so in doubt about the accuracy of that post.
WWII? No doubt about it.
Korea? For sure.
Vietnam? I am certain of it.
The reality is that it does happen all over the world. We are not a single player in the torture game. Most Soldiers will speak out against it at least as far as torturing Uniformed soldiers goes.
Of course torture took place. But it was criminal. Bush tried to make it legal - i.e., the official position of the United States. He made you a torturer. See?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01
The often quoted Geneva convention was written for and is for uniformed soldiers. Spies and saboteurs are excluded. So are non-uniformed soldiers caught on the field of battle or behind enemy lines. These are considered spies or saboteurs.
The treatment of prisoners who do not fall into the categories described in Article 4 has led to the current controversy regarding the interpretation of "unlawful combatants" by the George W. Bush administration. The assumption that such a category as unlawful combatant exists is contradicted by the findings by the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia in the Celebici Judgment. The judgement quoted the 1958 ICRC commentary on the Fourth Geneva Convention: Every person in enemy hands must be either a prisoner of war and, as such, be covered by the Third Convention; or a civilian covered by the Fourth Convention. Furthermore, "There is no intermediate status; nobody in enemy hands can be outside the law,"
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01
Am I against torture? That would depend upon what is at stake. For example if we had reliable intel of a nuke being smuggled into our country, and we had someone we thought had credible info? Without a moments hesitation I would put that terrorists feet in the fire myself. That said would I do it to try and find out where terrorists get their food and medicine? NO
And if that nearly impossible situation ever happened, you would be guilty of a crime. And nobody would convict you. That's why Lincoln wasn't impeached for violating the Constitution.
However, that situation has never happened in the history of the world. And yet, we've tortured dozens of people to death.
Of course torture took place. But it was criminal. Bush tried to make it legal - i.e., the official position of the United States. He made you a torturer. See?
And if that nearly impossible situation ever happened, you would be guilty of a crime. And nobody would convict you. That's why Lincoln wasn't impeached for violating the Constitution.
However, that situation has never happened in the history of the world. And yet, we've tortured dozens of people to death.
Of course torture took place. But it was criminal. Bush tried to make it legal - i.e., the official position of the United States. He made you a torturer. See?
And if that nearly impossible situation ever happened, you would be guilty of a crime. And nobody would convict you. That's why Lincoln wasn't impeached for violating the Constitution.
However, that situation has never happened in the history of the world. And yet, we've tortured dozens of people to death.
Of course it happened? So it was Okay as long as we looked at it as an illegal act?
Impossible situation? Its been demonstrated aproximatly 20 million times how easy it is to enter this country illegally. Its been demonstrated unknown times how easy it is to enter this country with illegal substances.
The drug trade...
Russia can not account for all its warheads..
Are terrorists plotting an attack? No doubt about it.
Can they pull off an attack?
A terrorist plot resulting in the deaths of thousands has happened. In fact at least 3 major attacks so far.
I say again if we had reliable intel that another was coming and we had someone who we thought did in fact know the facts of the how where and when I would have no issue with the Gov doing what ever it took to get said information. It has happened already several times including by domestic terrorists. We got lucky with trade center 1. I do not advocate the torture of the common soldier or even an officer. But in an extreme situation that might save thousands of lives or even hundreds I am fine with it.
Its easy for folks who don't have to deal with these animals to pass judgment.. How do we get the intel? On rare occasions some will give it up for a deal. Most are simply too dedicated to their cause or religion.
I do question the veracity of the FBI on this. They can not possibly publicly state that they feel good intel can be gained.
Back to the topic.
Our Military as a whole does not torture anyone nor is it allowed in the UCMJ... Torture by Individuals perhaps...
I am so tired of hearing on the news about possible torture methods used by our military.
As far as I know, we have never beheaded anybody. Not just behead, but saw like a loaf of bread!
While we are at war, if they need to do things in order to extract information to prevent another 9/11, so what? A "mock execution"? Give me a break! We are not killing anybody. After what happened, a little humiliation and a little fear doesn't seem like much.
I'm beginning to wonder if when obama said "there would be transparency" if he really meant on what everybody else was doing.
When the news media reports on what the CIA or whatever department, is doing, our enemies also see everything, they don't need to know!
I just don't think obama gets it. There are some things the world doesn't need to know.
After World War II The Allies set up the Nuremberg Tribunals to establish just what was a WAR CRIME. Germans were hung for following orders, Japanese were hung for Waterboarding American Prisoners to find out information on imminent attacks. These rules were incorporated into the Nuremberg Doctrine. In 1951 the United States pushed the UN General Assembly into adopting those rules as International Law. That means that we are Treaty Bound to prosecute WAR CRIMINALS who violate the Nuremberg Doctrine.
I thought the Japanese were hung for Bataan death march and executing unarmed prisoners and soldiers trying to surrender.
I thought that they were hung for murdering civilians by the thousands. Japanese war crimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In case you wanted to make a fair comparison.
Its always entertaining to see Republicans become government apologists whenever talking about torture allegations.
On one hand they argue that government is an evil necessity that is inefficient, corrupt, and plagued with bureaucracies, but with regards to torture allegations and its effectiveness, government is noble, just, and deserves our support 100%.
What an utter disgrace this attitude is to the uniform you once wore.
You can't be rational when faced with someone who isn't rational?
Please tell me you're no longer "serving". I don't want people like you "fighting" for me.
Because people like you have no flippin courage anymore. NO PRISONER deserves physical torture like water boarding or decapitation, but to scare someone..... oh my what evil people we are. Give me a damn break. I could care less if you want me fighting for you. Have some flippin courage and serve for yourself and dont be a coward and enjoy the fact that we are doing the fighting while you want to hide behind our blood sweat and tears.
Let me know the next time Al Qaeda uses fighter jets or drones or Apache helicopters to shoot up YOUR neighborhood or accidentally kill YOUR family members at a roadside checkpoint or bomb YOUR wedding party. Do you think an "I'm sorry" is going to suffice to someone who's family is gone forever?
Maybe you need to live under a foreign occupier to gain a greater understanding. Or you could just move to North Korea for a while.
Don't forget to write.
Or fly a jet liner into two bulidings killing thousands of innocents. Guess you were asleep for that day huh?
Because people like you have no flippin courage anymore. NO PRISONER deserves physical torture like water boarding or decapitation, but to scare someone..... oh my what evil people we are. Give me a damn break. I could care less if you want me fighting for you. Have some flippin courage and serve for yourself and dont be a coward and enjoy the fact that we are doing the fighting while you want to hide behind our blood sweat and tears.
OK I'm an Army Retiree and a Disabled Vietnam Veteran. The Nuremberg Doctrine is the LAW. The United States is TREATY BOUND to bring WAR CRIMINALS to justice. The Definitions of Torture and War Criminal are those defined in the Nuremberg Tribunals NOT the ones made up by John Yoo and Alberto Gonzales.
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